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Limited in what i can write here -please understand. Aging & loving recently widowed parent with early dementia wants to help POA & atty make complex estate decisions with both +/- implications. She understands in the moment, but short term memory probs impact retention. Wants to be involved, and she gets frustrated when discussing.



Adult child with severe mental health probs ( & no support system), w/ minimal self-awareness, is imposing immeasurable challenges to mother & poa & atty. Atty says parent #1 priority. POA agrees. But, adult child, unable & unwilling to participate meaningfully, is throwing up unpredictable & seemingly insurmountable road blocks at every turn, impacting not only herself, but parent & POA too.



Prob: Cannot stop adult child frm exercising bad judgement. But what can be done to prevent her from majorly interfering, which will make it all worse for all, both short & long term. Previous Suggestions have included RO. Possible, but adds to already impossible tasks of poa (who has no support system). Another suggestion: elder care atty could write "back off" letter. Also ok, but this will trigger adult child significantly & possibly make things worse.



Hoping a reader will relate & have some guidance.



I know this is hard without more specific info. Pls do the best you can & i will try to answer best i can. 🤞🙏 Feel like im already losing. Beyond overwhelmed with no end in sight.

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I agree with the other posters that more information is needed.
Has the adult sibling with severe mental illness been diagnosed? What is the adult sibling’s role in relation to the mother’s care? How is the adult sibling exercising bad judgement and how could she interfere? Also, what is your role in this?
This is an anonymous message board. Why are worried about divulging further details?
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Not sure if POA is the OP here?

Maybe POA has a non-confronting style or people-pleasing streak? Maybe under some F.O.G & not yet able to stand up to sibling with the mental illness/lack of inisght?

I can certainly imagine my super sensitive sibling wanting to keep the peace & going along with some of my sibling's wishes (despite MCI + lack of insight).

I will need to put my Common Sense Hat firmly on & let that overrule.
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pleasegodhelp Feb 2023
I can also imagine the opposite scenario. OP has the sibling caring for Mom, is living in another state and controlling the money and possibly doing things they shouldn't be doing with the money and trying to prevent interference from this sibling which could jeopardize her plans. Flags go up for me when people use the word "severe". To me severe mentally ill is nearly institutionalized. Add that to the strange wording in the OPs original message and the fact that she seems to be concerned unsure about her ability to remain in control despite having the POA (or being on terms with the sibling who does) and I have to wonder. POA is pretty cut and dried. So what don't we know? Pathologizing others is a classic trait of narcissism and there are plenty of those folks out there. I'm always careful about taking someone's word about that, especially if the rest of what they is unclear/sounds strange/doesn't add up.
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Hope65: Perhaps you should access the COA (Council on Aging) in your locality, who should have on staff a social worker.
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Hi & your not alone. I’m also dealing with an unhinged sibling. My brother appointed himself medical POA & is busy manipulating my parents out of their home & asets. Also my father has prostrate cancer & had my father call his drs & tell them refuse me assess to their medical files. That way last March to now him using my fathers initials & identity fraud. But I’ve kept a journal, watching my brother incriminate himself w criminal activity but I have witnesses. I live out of state.
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Power of attorney documentation can help elderly adults give the power to care for their medical and financial needs to another trusted individual. Should their health decline to the point that they cannot make those decisions for themselves, the agent named in a power of attorney will step in and handle those needs. Often a power of attorney is an adult child who lives near the individual and can handle these affairs, but sometimes this can create tension between the adult siblings.
A power of attorney document gives the agent the right to legally sign documents, make healthcare decisions, and take care of financial transactions on behalf of your parent. Under the law, they are required to act in the best interests of your parent. They are not allowed to do specific things, including:
If the judge finds that your sibling has been abusing your parent as the power of attorney, you can prosecute that sibling for things like fraud, embezzlement, exploitation, and theft. These are serious crimes that can lead to imprisonment and steep fines. State laws will dictate how much those fines will be, but these are serious consequences that have a far-reaching impact.
Because of these severe consequences, the courts do not take these accusations lightly. You will need ample evidence of fraud or abuse to start this type of case. Always work with a legal team that is well-versed in elder law and elder abuse scenarios. This will ensure you can build a solid case to protect your parent against these serious crimes.
Matilda
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JoAnn29 Feb 2023
The POA is not the mentally ill child.
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This sounds like a convoluted situation / question - and perhaps I do not understand what the question is / what the writer is asking:

The POA should know that they have all the rights to make legal determinations and decisions. If the POA doesn't know this, that person needs to contact an attorney specializing in elder care matters.

Gena / Touch Matters
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JoAnn29 Feb 2023
The problem is we have no idea who the POA is, just assuming its the OP. Also, who the Executor is. And why is ill sister getting involved unless she is a beneficiary and even then, she has no rights at this point.
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Guessing the Elder Law Attorney could request a psychiatrist to evaluate sister for competency and have a judge consider a cease and desist order if the test proves what you've said.
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JoAnn29 Feb 2023
It really doesn't matter if Mom or the POA are Executor. The sister has no say in how the Will is handled as long as its handled the way it is written. Even then, beneficiaries can't contest until the final accting.
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Hope, its been 8 days since you posted. I think we could give you more peace of mind if we knew a little more.

I am assuming that you are probating Dads Will? Parents lived in another State? Mom is now with you? Sibling lives in another state but is it the same State the Lawyer is in? Or a different state altogether from you and the lawyer?

Your Mom has a Dementia she cannot participate in the decisions that need to be made. Its costing you time and money. The same with ur sibling sticking their nose in. Every time the lawyer has to talk to ur sibling, it cost the estate money. If Mom is executor, she should not be. The lawyer can request a new assignment since the Executor is incompetent to make informed decisions. In your situation, I would allow the lawyer to be the Executor. That way neither you or Mom have anything to do with the Will. He can refer to you if he has questions as Moms POA.

How does this sibling harass you? Can u block them? The Lawyer can tell his secretary he does not want to talk to the sibling. Are you even beneficiaries? Usually the wife receives everything. Its not until her Will that their are beneficiaries.
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I read in some of your responses below that this attorney is in another state and you and Mom are meeting with him on zoom. I don't see how this can work in an instance of someone with your Mom's current status.
I fail to see how the sibling figures in this at ALL. The sibling should not even be having this discussed with him or her. In fact as POA for your Mom you are beholden not to discuss her affairs with others without her permission. If Mom herself is including this sibling then you do have perhaps someone more impaired than it seems, who cannot make decisions on important estate matters on zoom with an attorney not in your area.
I suggest a good trust and estate attorney in your own area who will work with you and your Mom. I suggest not discussing ANY OF THIS with a mentally impaired sibling, or anyone else if your Mom wants to make important changes.
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what is RO?
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Sibby58 Feb 2023
Restraining Order
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If you are the POA why does it matter what sibling wants, or is in any way involved in decisions. Can you not work with just your attorney to get business done? Probably I don’t have enough info, but I’m guessing sibling lives with mom. Make arrangements for mom and have support in the form of another person when removing her from the home. After mom is settled work to do whatever is needed for sibling. You need to stop thinking you have to discuss and involve a mentally ill person. Your lack of having, and following through with a plan, is what is overwhelming you. Way too much drama which never settles anything.
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pleasegodhelp Feb 2023
I don't think the OP outright says who has the POA. She speaks of the POA as if it is one of her siblings but then says the POA has no support system (is the OP not support for the POA?) and at other times sounds like she is the POA (is she talking about herself in the 3rd person?): "Mom, sibling, & POA" -- if there are only two siblings then one is the adult child and the other is the the OP, who is also the POA, and talking about herself in the 3rd person. If she is not the POA then there are 3 siblings total, so why is the OP talking like no one in this family has an ally -- she stated that both the POA and the adult child have no support. If she's the POA she has all the power. If the sibling is the POA then that sibling has the support of the OP....Something doesn't add up.

So what if the adult child doesn't have a support system. What does that have to do with your mother -- what currency does this severely mentally ill sibling have if you or a trusted sibling are the POA? Is this "adult child" currently caring for your mother? Is that your concern? If so, you can kiss any chance of credibility goodbye because why would someone who cares about the well-being of a beloved mother allow her to live with a sibling that she deems to be "severely mentally ill"? Any sane daughter with a POA would extricate her without delay. Is this final unfished business going for guardianship of your mother? Are you fearing her reaction? You can't play that both ways. You can't ask a "severely mentally ill" sibling to care for your mother, and simultaneously try to get guardianship of your mother. Possession is 9/10 of the law. If she's with this "adult child" and claims to be happy and content and her dementia is only mild with some memory issues your own lucidity and mental well-being (or motives) may be called into question.

Just operating on theory as that's all we have to work with but I'm sorry...it's just not adding up for me. I'd very much like to know where your mother is now, who is caring for her, how she is doing and if there have been any complaints from Mom.
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I lived it and am still dealing with it. I am p.o.a. And have a sister with mental issues that is not self aware of her own issues. She has done everything possible to cause problem. Made false allegations. Made false reports. Made illegal purchases. Basically stirred the pot as much as she can and could. All the while playing the victim and or hero. My best advice is to document everything. Hire a social worker. Exercise your D.P.O.A a protect your loved one with a do not contact order or PPO. I let my sister pull all her shenanigans without one but it was close to becoming a legal blow out. The P.O.A is more powerful than you think. Use it and reach out to places and people that deal with these issues. Hospice, elder care homes and support groups like you are doing. I feel for you. Thank God my little local town knows mine is a nut case. I wish you the best of luck
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Hope65 Feb 2023
Please tell more about the PPO for LO. What do you know about the process? I don't want to, but may need to...for me, too. Very fearful of implications from sibling -- I'm pretty traumatized, honestly. This situation is so difficult and not at all what those responding make it out to be. Granted my post is a bit cryptic. Dont want it to become legal, bc those are the most horrible battles & I don't think I'd make it. . She could pull the legal card if i get PPO - very unpredictable. Unfortunately, im not in a place where people know about adult sibling -- im on my own. Thanks for your reply.
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So your mom is currently with you? Physically in your care?
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Justwow123 Apr 2023
I’ve read your responses and I’m inclined to agree with you. I think OP should respond if they truly wanted advice.
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I’m sorry for your recent loss. Focus on helping your mom through her grieving. Add life to her time and time to her life. Make her as happy and comfortable as you can. The future knowledge that you did so will be greater than any inheritance you could ever get.

As far as the estate goes, let the chips fall where they may and don’t get involved. Let the lawyer assess whether your mother has adequate capacity to make estate changes based on the laws of her state. No attorney would risk their legal license and ability to all future earnings to earn an hourly fee to draft documents for someone who no longer has sufficient capacity.

Take no legal action. There will be plenty of lawyers that will “help you” but they will just take your money - and at the same time, this will make you look greedy.

A minimal capacity loss will not impact her ability to make changes to estate planning. Your mother’s lawyer will be observing you (and the mentally ill and/or any other sibling) and notes of everything that is happening will make it into the “file.”

After my dad died, a few of my multiple siblings started counting their future inheritance. They also teamed up and collectively hired an attorney or three who gave them pricey and irrelevant advice. I heard one of my siblings, suffering from financially tough times, even went boat shopping. (They did not however, come visit, write or call mom). They did call her estate lawyer and say “quasi-threatening” things to the attorney. He made copious notes which later became court evidence.

When speaking of my siblings, Mom told her estate attorney, “Aren’t they supposed to wait until I die before they start picking at my bones?” How sad!
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I hope that you or someone in the know has privately spoken with the attorney in full confidence. Attorney needs to know that adult parent is very incapacitated - which is what it is when she can't retain information in order to make decisions - and the interfering person is missing some of her marbles. Attorney surely should be able to guide this in the right direction. I don't think that Ms. Marbles is going to be rational, though, so the effectiveness of a shut-up letter from the attorney would likely be nil.

I know of a legal case that didn't have to do with an estate. It was a matter in which a person with suspected dementia and other definite mental health issues sued a former friend over past business dealings. The friend's lawyer subpoenaed medical records of the possibly demented plaintiff. It was learned through the records that the plaintiff had definitely been diagnosed with dementia. I assume that there wasn't a case because demented plaintiff had confabulated some allegations against friend. Others could testify that demented plaintiff had been confabulating and showing irrational behavior for some time. Shortly before the trial, after friend's deposition, demented plaintiff dropped the case. I suspect that demented plaintiff's lawyer advised that.

So there is a way to counter demented, mentally ill persons like Ms. Marbles who make legal trouble. The problem is that it's expensive. Demented plaintiff caused legal fees in the tens of thousands for the former friend.
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AnnReid Feb 2023
I ultimately discussed the ongoing situation with the attorney, and for my situation, it was helpful.

I absolutely agree that as POA, you may have to “take the bull by the horns”.

I stayed laser focused on my LO’s welfare, and that helped me keep a miserable situation from getting any worse.

Best wishes, hopes, and prayers to you. I totally understand what your situation is like.
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Is your POA in effect, meaning a doctor or two has said Mom is unable to make informed decisions? Or was it Immediate at the time she signed off on the Paperwork?

I will assume that Dads estate is being Probated in this other state.
And other sibling lives in a whole different state from you and Probate? Are you Executor of the Estate? I look at it this way, the sibling has no say and Mom is not competent to make any decisions. So its all up to the Executor and the lawyer, period. If Mom is the Executor she shouldn't be and the lawyer can ask Probate to assign someone else.

If you have a lawyer involved, then he and the Executor go by what Dads Will says. You cannot change that. In the end an accting is done and thats when sibling can contest. I would have the lawyer send sibling a letter saying that the estate is now in his hands and that he and the Ex are following the directives of the Will. That an accting will be done and sent to them for their signature. They can contest at that time but they need to let the Ex and the lawyer probate the estate as the law says. That the longer it takes to probate the Will the more it will cost in lawyer fees, the less beneficiaries get.

No beneficiary has anything to do with Probating a Will. Its the Executor that does all the work and hires a lawyer if needed. The Lawyers fees come out of the estate. This sibling needs to know that their interference is costing the estate money.
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Oh I have more to add…

Does your mom still use email? When my mom was earlier in dementia I asked for her permission for her email password . Genuine reason being not to snoop but to make sure there weren’t any e-bills to take care of or scams , in the event of her being incapacitated. She totally agreed. By ‘scams’’ this also included in my mind my money hungry sibling. Sure enough there have been a couple of billing issues that came via mom’s email, as well as a couple of fishing emails from my sibling. It’s been a good way to keep tabs on mom’s bills being up to date and not being scammed by ANYONE.

Also sounds like your troubled sibling doesn’t have a legal leg to stand on, if they live far away that’s also very good. You might want to let them know you know what no good they’re up to , just the once, and then go no contact. My sister knows I’m onto her and avoids me completely, which is fantastic. I will take absolutely zero crap behavior from her. Enough is enough. Meanwhile myself and a couple of professionals and another relative keep an eye on her from afar.

Excuse the long answers but I know how exhausting dealing with people like this can be! It’s so cruddy. Truly wishing you the best
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Hope65 Feb 2023
I need a "zero crap" lesson big time. It's taking a serious toll on my mental and emotional health. No joke.
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If mom cannot retain important information, she nay no longer be competent to make these changes.

Have you discussed guardianship with atty?
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I assume you are the POA. You have an attorney and that attorney has given you good advice, that the parent is the priority. Be guided by this attorney. Let go and let him or her handle it. The sibling cannot enter a room nor make a difference in any other way as long as the POA is responsible and employs a good attorney to act in the best interest of the parent. Hard to go through, but you will have to just know the basics, and rely on them.
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Is it possible to get a fiduciary for your mom’s financial needs at least? A good one will be a pro at basically telling any intrusive relatives to go pound sand. Likewise if there is a relative like a cousin or such who is willing and lives far away AND has good boundaries who can be executor, or financial POA, or whatnot. That’s a huge ask , understandably.

I have one sibling and she is awful. Mainly money driven and also literally crazy . Dad picked another relative to be executor just to take the heat off of me. This relative has no problems saying ‘no’ and also is hard to reach, which is great in this situation.

Basically if you can shovel off anything to professionals and/or not immediate nearby relatives, that might take the rest of you siblings out of the spotlight. Then do not engage with the mean sibling if at all possible. At all. Lots of people have big mental health issues and they aren’t horrible folks…it really boils own to personality imo.

It’s really about shutting doors of access to the problem person. And I’m really super duper careful about money. I have joint account with mom which pays ONLY for her immediate needs. The rest of her assets are locked up like Fort Knox that nobody except the hired pro can touch.

So sorry you’re going through this. It’s really stressful and adds to a difficult situation. Wishing you the best and freedom from this drama!
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Hope65 Feb 2023
Yeah. I need a sand pounder big time. Good point about having others more more involved, so as to build space around me. Im struggling with that -- so fearful about someone else not treating mom with & making choices about her with the dignity she deserves. Very sadly & unfortunately, there is no family. Mom, sibling, & POA. Dad did it all & without him, everything is crumbling. POA cant possibly manage it all, but has minimal team building expertise. MUST change.
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If parent is willing, can parent accompany you to attorney and adult child with mental disability can be left alone or go visit someone else so that parent can visit attorney with you?
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Hope65 Feb 2023
Mom & i can meet with atty via zoom, as he is in a different state. (Long story). Adult child also in different state. My concern is with mom's ability to meaningfully retain info. More later...

Thank you for this suggestion
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My family has experienced some of this but not to the same degree. My mother who was co-executor with the family attorney for my grandmothers estate had an alcoholic brother who often put a wrench in the works and later after his death but before the estate settled his daughter became the roadblock. My father also has an alcaholic and drug dependent brother and while my two grandmothers were very diffrent each of them felt responsibility to care for their troubled sons throughout their lives and could be swayed by them and their needs. So I ask these questions based on that experience.

It sounds like one sibling has been established as POA and there is a family attorney involved. Is the problem that the sibling with issues presses her agenda with Mom who is easily swayed in the moment making it harder to compleate the plans previously agreed to or is this sibling able to throw up legal roadblocks somehow? How many siblings are there and were the POA and estate set up prior to her husbands passing, the issue being making adjustments since? It’s hard to offer any ideas without knowing some of this for me.
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Hope65 Feb 2023
Sib may could potentially throw up legal road blocks. 2 sibs. POA & estate set up prior by patents, but for one major piece, which is now on shoulders of POA. When this chg happens, adult child may go pull out all stops. Had it been in place before death, none of this situation would have. taken place. Same If adult child were w/o. probs Only thing to blame is bad timing, but that doesn't do any good, as adult child is not rational ( clinically). If anyone other than father makes This chg, adult child's actions will become unpredictable.
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