Long backstory short - FIL was raised by a mother and grandmother who treated him as if he were the second coming. He is a raging narcissist. He has some age related cognitive decline but at this point it seems more just some really poor decision making. He treats women as if we were put on Earth to see to his needs and nothing more.
Lately, we have needed him to "help us" by making some good decisions around the care and maintenance of his home. Removing some old things that he no longer needs that are causing damage to the house (by this I mean giving us permission to get rid of them for him) or blocking exits. To be honest we could do it and he would never know but it is HIS house and we were trying to keep him involved. SIL, who lives there, tried to have a rational conversation with him. He dug in. Refused to discuss it. We needed to move these things soon. BIL who lives there, tried to have a rational conversation with him. He refused. My DH, his son, tried to have a rational conversation with him. He refused. I tried to have rational conversation with him...you get the picture.
So I tried one last tactic - and I swear to you all I absolutely hate this tactic - but it is the ONLY one that works and I don't know why. I talk to him like a child, I tell him he doesn't have a choice and that it is going. That his house is in disrepair, that is it dangerous and that his home owner's would cancel on him if they did an inspection, that the fire department would report him for blocking an exit as it illegal....yadda yadda yadda. All in a stern voice. Suddenly he is on board and letting us get rid of stuff.
Then behind my back he is telling my husband that he needs to "Get his woman in line."
I hate this! Why won't he just work with us when we try to talk to him adult to adult? Is there something we are missing? Is there more cognitive decline that we are missing? Why does he respond to me treating him like a child but not us treating him like an adult? I don't want to treat him like that. I leave with a headache every time I have to have a confrontation like that. It isn't fair to him or me that I have to resort to that. AND I'm the only one he will listen to!! We have even tried that approach with the other three and nothing. His sister says he is afraid I will take my husband and go because we don't have to be there and she believes he is intimidated because he has never had to deal with anyone that would tell him he isn't getting his way before.
I just don't know if this is how we are going to have to do things from now on to get anything accomplished. Is this our lives from now on? Is there really no discussing things with him like an adult anymore?
I also think that with even mild cognitive decline, saying "this is how it's going to be", not in anger, but with love, the way you would a chikd, is a good structure for someone who must be feeling panicky at loss of control they are experiencing.
''He has some age related cognitive decline... LATELY, we have needed him to "help us" by making some good decisions ...To be honest we could do it and he would never know.''.
I would say just go ahead and do the things you need to do for safety now. If his cognitive decline is getting worse he's not able to reason and you're just spinning in circles trying to get him to agree with you while it makes you stressed. He might not be able to reason anymore.
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I'd opt for this being a progression of his age related decline. Age related decline can morph into 'mild cognitive impairment'. Some people never progress beyond MCI, but it can predispose the person to develop one of the dementias as they age. It's tricky to see the progression if you're around as it can be subtle. People have tremendous social reserves that allow them to cover their cognitive losses early on.
Are there other things that aren't getting done or are now requiring more prompting like bill paying, or other poor decision making? Meds not taken? Tasks undone? New hygiene changes? Same conversations over and over? He could also possibly have a UTI, or a thyroid or vitamin imbalance, so should have a physician's visit set up to rule these out. It sounds like FIL will be defensive, so set up the visit as a 'medicare check up', and let the physician know in advance the reason for the visit, as well as the changes you've noticed.
With age-related decline your FIL's basic personality may become less filtered, so charming inappropriate comments may pop out.
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This was written for Alzheimers but could apply to the early stages of many types of dementia.
''The enormous changes in memory, perception, interpretation and understanding lead to changes in the ability to use judgment as the person has used it in the past.''
''People with Alzheimer disease gradually stop their household activities such as repair, cleaning, cooking, gardening, etc. as the disease makes the performance of these tasks impossible. The abilities to plan, organize, and carry out functions become severely compromised early in the disease. These functions are called executive functions, because they require a number of different memories, different skills and the ability to see the sequence of each of the steps of a procedure and their relation to the other steps. Performing duties around the house becomes impossible for the person with Alzheimer disease, even though they appear to be physically capable of carrying out those duties.''
-- http://www.dementiacarestrategies.com/12_pt_Understanding_the_Dementia_Experience.pdf
It would not hurt to have him evaluated. Have some blood tests done and maybe some neurological testing. I hope someone has POA. If not, get it before testing. If he refuses, tell him that without someone having it, then the State can step in and take over his care. You as his child will not be able to do anything.
I had NO idea that it all was actually dementia talking.
Reading here finally helped me to put the puzzle pieces together.
Just out of interest, how did your DH respond to his father's get your woman in line tip? I think this is very important.
But he told his dad he was sick of the way he treats me and he wasn't going to say anything to me about how I treated him because I was speaking for him and he appreciates that I still even tolerate dealing with his dad especially because he knows I only do it for him. That's so huge!!
https://www.agingcare.com/questions/unable-to-communicate-without-an-argument-is-this-normal-behavior-for-someone-his-age-468424.htm
FIL KNOWS that he can stay in that house as long as they are there. He also knows that he CAN'T stay there alone and there is NO ONE that is going to live there except them. He is aware that if they leave he will either have to hire full time 24/7 caregivers or move to a skilled nursing facility because his physical needs far exceed an assisted living facility at this point. I think SIL feels like she is obligated to take care of her dad. NONE of the rest of us feel that way and she knows this. No one asked her to take care of him or wants her to have to do this, she knows this. We are ALL ready and waiting to find a skilled nursing facility. We all agree it is beyond time. But we know we can't do anything until certain things are in place because the house will have to be sold to pay for his care. And he will not go until they do. So we wait.
At this point, what will help you keep sane? Going back to your original post, I still say just do whatever needs to be done to make the home safe and livable without FIL's input. You all have tried to get his permission to make changes and reason with him, but this leads to frustration on your part and eventually the same outcome. Let go of the need to keep him involved in the decisions for the sake of interaction and autonomy. I know it makes it easier if he starts complaining about decisions because you can say that he agreed to them, but he's deliberately ceded control over his life by his inaction and deliberate helplessness.
The situation is unlikely to change until forced, probably by a healthcare emergency, so perhaps your best option is to weigh your frustration level against how much you want to support and enable that household and decide what's worth saving, and what's worth letting go. Perhaps a talk with SIL/BIL about what you can do to support them without you having to interact with your FIL as much? Easy to type, hard to do...good luck!
Narcs love to create contention and then play the hero by coming up with a solution. You all are feeding his narcissism by asking him for input. He gets to be the boss and that is part of the game.
One thing that I know from personal experience, narcs are bullies and being such, they do not know how to deal with anyone or anything that stands up to them and their bs. He isn't thinking about you guys leaving, he lives in the moment and he is always figuring out how to manipulate the current situation. So, I recommend not giving him credit for any forethought about the consequences of his actions, narcs don't believe that they have consequences for their actions.
I think that I would let my SIL deal with him 100% if she is the reason that he isn't in care. She doesn't get to dictate that she stays and now you and hubby are obligated to prop this situation up. She will decide sooner rather than later to move if she is dealing with him solo or maybe she won't but, her wanting to live there doesn't obligate you and your husband to support her choices. All choices have consequences and dealing with daddy is her consequence for not moving out.
Best of luck, this is a tough situation that your SIL and BIL have created with your FIL.
You can't talk to your FIL like an adult because he's no longer functioning as one. Of course he treats women like they are here to serve him. That has been his experience his entire life. Granted, some of that comes from his upbringing but not all of it. I speak from almost 25 years of elder care experience and can say that most of the elderly people I've known (men and women alike) treat females like they are here to serve them and cater to their every need and want. It's a generational thing. Even with elderly women because they too have been conditioned to believe that females are supposed to serve and be the caregivers to everything in the world. The "stubbornness" and downright abusive behavior is reserved for the women in their life who have to provide their care. This means hired caregivers, daughters, and grand daughters.
I have to have a bit of a laugh because for centuries childbirth was referred to as the "curse" of women. Clearly the people who thought this never had to be a caregiver and responsible for an elderly person. I'd rather birth a dozen bairns then have to be doing that.
Your way of handing your FIL is exactly the right way because it's what he needs. So many of our elderly loved ones need to be shown some tough love by their families. When they can't bully or push around their family anymore and their often asinine nonsense is no longer indulged, they will accept the help they need.
I am sorry that you don't like the way you have to handle your FIL and his situation. Unfortunately, this is the only way to keep moving forward with him. He's going to complain incessantly about you to whoever will listen. You and everyone else is just going to have to ignore it and continue.
Since there appears to be multiple problems, please get your FIL evaluated for dementia and physical ailments. Don't be surprised if his family doctor refers him to a neurologist (for evaluation and treatment of dementia) and a geriatric psychiatrist (for evaluation and treatment of mental health issues).
Treatment for dementia? Do you mean medication to keep him calmed down? sedated?
You indicated that BIL/SIL moved in 5 years ago, more out of necessity for them than for dear old dad. What is their situation now? Can they afford to find a place of their own? If so, then they should work on finding a place and make plans to move out. Meanwhile, if you all work well together as a team, get dad's place cleaned up and situated. Once they move out, then see how it goes. If he can't fend for himself, then someone will need to step in and take over. This may require guardianship. Based on another person's journey with that, it doesn't always have to be competence and doesn't have to be complete guardianship. The courts will try to allow the person some independence, but if it can be shown that he can't cope, then some or all oversight can be granted (his funds should pay for this, not any of yours or the ILs.)
If the ILs still can't afford their own place, then you all can still tackle cleaning up the place, but help SIL grow a backbone and have them slowly withdraw from all the help they provide. If necessary, you can increase your Grinch repertoire to include directing him to take on some of the duties required, as he used to do. They've enabled him for a long time, so it won't happen overnight, but between them backing off and you being drill sargeant, get him doing tasks OR teach her how to do it. He's likely physically weaker from not doing it, so it needs to be done in stages, but he needs to either take this on or move to AL.
Remember, even the Grinch had a heart and it grew three sizes!
Talking to him in baby talk is disrespectful -- simplifying what you're trying to convey is not.
SIL & BIL got in a sticky spot a while back & FIL helped them out. FIL saw it more 'transaction' than gift.. The King grants this generosity = enslaved into the King's service - forever. Now they are stuck fast.
They may need to do a 'Harry & Megan' & plan their escape & independence despite the hardships it will bring. That's up to them of course.
You seem to get along well with them - I'd make THAT relationship the one to preserve & protect. (They'll be still around in 5, 10 years).
Ensure they get you. Eg if you stepped back from helping FIL & this increased their workload would they understand?
If you work with them on a master plan, the tough love approach could work.
The biggest barrier will be SIL. That F.O.G. (fear obligation guilt). She will need to examine her thoughts. Does FIL helping her before match what he is expecting now? Has the emotional/financial debt been cleared in her mind?
One last thought.. when I ran up a credit card in my stupid youth. My Folks did not pay the bill but showed me how to manage it myself. Could SIL take that approach with FIL now? I won't DO all your work, but I will show you how to hire help?
So treat him like a child and he responds in case you stop giving him things he wants, but like a child behind your back he rebels and talks about you because he thinks having things his way is his right.
I guess its a bit like Pascal's wager - do what DIL says just in case I can't continue to get my own way.
I doubt you will change him, but a discussion between your generation of the family that agrees that things will get done by treating him as a child and that's just the way it is - do it and move on - could take the strain off all of you. Its a case of finding what works and using it same as with a child, he is just a child that was spoilt, never grew up, and is likely unfortunately to suffer mental decline until more and more like a child in future. If the family can agree on a plan of action you will all feel less stressed and more supported by each other going forward.
Just how I read it - having a narcissistic mother.
If it’s any help at all, I was coached by a person who has experience in managing these behaviors to do just what you are doing. Just speak clearly and firmly and walk away when needed. Don’t try to reason or explain or appease. I don’t raise my voice, but I am serious and I don’t show emotion. I can say to not take it personally but it’s hard not to sometimes. Deep down your FIL knows you won’t take any guff and that it is likely you could cut him off. He knows he needs help and is clinging to whatever control he still thinks he has. For him that’s being verbally abusive. I’m sorry you have to go through this!
At least, with a parent figure rather than a partner in that circumstance, you’re not in a position of grieving how your beloved peer’s cognitive/emotional decline is affecting them and you.
Hugs! Take a measure of empowerment for yourself, to weather this caregiving storm.
Next time, just tell him nicely the first time the same thing.
You can even add the Health Dept and Senior Dept.
But, please keep in mind it is his house and he shouldn't have to get rid of anything unless it really is a concern for Health or Safety. Not because you or anyone else want it cleaned up.
They'll be plenty of time to get rid of his stuff, after he's gone.
You don't need to try teaching an old dog new tricks.
As long as he shows you respect, he can't help how he feels or thinks because that's how he grew up.
But, you show him respect and let him know you expect it back and everything will be fine.
You’re going through a most difficult time in FIL’s life and if you can do anything to ease his burden, while not destroying your life would be most advantageous for all involved. It’s very possible that he is depressed, anxious and confused which only adds to the agony of watching his life slip away in slow motion and not knowing why.