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When I took over my dad’s bill paying I stopped paying for any number of unnecessary things he was contributing to, and let them all know it was ending. His money was immediately conserved for his needs only, especially as we didn’t know what his needs might turn into. Most of the unnecessary things were charities he’d been supporting, but there were a couple of relatives mixed in. I let them know, kindly, that it was ending, and was pleasantly surprised that no one argued or disagreed. I kept loads of records and would advise you to do likewise
Your sister needs to accept the new reality that your father's generosity will end some day whether it's because he needs to pay for his own care or because of his future death, it's time she makes a plan to be self supporting. That said it's his money and if this has been a long standing agreement between them it's not up to you to decide the right or wrong of this, as his agent you are obligated to attempt to fulfill his wishes as much as is reasonably possible.
No, you are POA now and you are paying dad's bills, not your sisters. You cannot gift his money. Your father would have had to put this request formally in his POA designation, and even then this would be very risky. You could be robbing your father of Medicaid were he to need it in the future if he/you are "gifting" out money in any amounts. Given what bills are today, this could qualify as gifting and not a good thing. You are not allowed to gift your father's money to someone else, nor to enrice yourself nor any other family member.
My response is dependent on the fact your father is no longer competent, you are paying his bills for him (and keeping METICULOUS RECORDS of every penny into and out of ALL his accounts), and your sister has no contract stipulating your father pay her electric bill for some certain amount of time because-etc."
My answer also is dependent on the fact your father doesn't LIVE with your sister, because if he does then he owes a whole lot more than electric bill contribution; if he lives with sister then a care contract for shared living expenses should be done by you and sis WITH AN ATTORNEY and as a legal document/contract.
My take is it depends on the circumstances, and we have zero information to go on. It's common on the forum to assume that a POA has only been activated because the grantor has become so cognitively incapacitated that they are in imminent need of a facility, and that people like the OP's sister are greedy grifters. But not all POAs require incapacity and not all elders are poor or have been taken advantage of, IMO if a person has an outstanding debt or has given to a charity for decades or has agreed to support a child for reasons that are none of the POA's business then that should be honoured UNLESS it will cause financial hardship/difficulties.
I was told when I became Guardian for my Husband that I could use his account ONLY for HIS bills, and other expenses. The fact that he had given me a Christmas gift or Birthday gift for the past 30 years I could not use any of his funds to "buy me a gift". (I was told this after I had made a purchase for the house, that would benefit both of us and said it was a gift from him. So of course I repaid the money to his account ) So I would be cautious about paying someone else's bills from the account.
This is a sad situation. I am sure that your dad was concerned about your sister and wanted to help her.
There’s nothing wrong with helping someone over a hump. When help becomes a crutch it’s a problem for the giver and the taker.
It would have been more beneficial for your dad to work with your sister to figure out a plan for her to be able to help herself at some point down the line.
Even though your dad’s intentions were to help. He ended up crippling your sister because she became dependent upon him.
I think you should do whatever you feel is best for your dad. He matters as much as your sister does.
Are you interested in helping your sister get back on track by teaching her how to survive on her own without additional help from your dad? If you are, you can fulfill your dad’s wishes of your sister’s needs being met.
No you would need to stop paying her bills for her. The money that is solely reserved for his needs not you're sisters, paying her bills out of his money could land you both into trouble.
That is interesting. I forgot about that - the money is HIS and legally needs to be used for his needs only. Good point. Thank you. Still, I would encourage this writer to 1) get an attorney and 2) read the POA, carefully. She has to know what she is responsible for legally as the POA.
Do you understand how POA works? You (the POA) is supposed to handle the person's financial matters as they did before the became incapacitated or got dementia.
Has your father's financial situation changed? Is he no longer able to afford to continue paying his daughter's electric bill?
If the answer to the two above questions is 'No' then keep paying it. Really, it is not for you to decide to stop paying if it's what your father wants and he can afford to do it. Ask your father what he wants. Just because someone has POA for another person does not mean that the person they have it for no longer gets a say on anything. They're supposed to.
If his financial situation changed for some reason like a Medicaid spend-down had to be done, or he got placed in care and was doing cash pay, then that would be different.
Your post sounds to me like you want to be spiteful to your sister by not paying a bill that your father always paid for her. You know she could get spiteful right back and if she has proof of their agreement she could report you to the probate court for abusing your POA status.
If your father cannot afford to pay this bill anymore explain that to your sister. Don't cut her off out of spite though.
I'm not being rude, but if her sister won't pay her own electricity bill, then I don't think she has the money to go to court. Also pov means that you do what is in the persons best interest not what they were paying for before,their health condition or mental health condition deteriorated, meaning for example if the person who they have poa over spent all there money gambling, before the health condition the person with poa has to make choices in what is actually meant as the best possible financial decision for them so like paying for somebody else's bills does not benifit the said person, and in court they will look at this, as what is in the best interest of the person that the poa is over for now and the future not the past.
I think a consult with a lawyer would help. I can see both sides of the story but not sure how this would all work out if Medicaid is ever needed. It may be a small amt that will be looked over. But, Sister will at sometime need to pay her own bills. She needs to now look into getting help. Or, your going to find her coming after u to pay her bills. Dear Dad did her no favor.
Pay it. Things don't need to get ugly now, you have other things on your plate. Make life as simple as possible, set up a direct debit and forget about it.
So let me give you a real life scenario. And you can do with it what you will. For YEARS my FIL (and before her death my MIL) has been financially supporting my SIL and her DH. Honestly we didn't even understand the true extent until very recently. When it got really bad they lost their home and ended up moving in with FIL. And after a period of time, he began to need care and by virtue of living WITH him - they became default caregivers (it has often been described the other way around since then).
Last year, things devolved and he had to go into residential care - home care just became impossible physically. But HE continued to allow them to spend his money. POA was NOT invoked.
My DH, who was the named POA, but again, NOT invoked, strongly urged all parties to fix the situation - but he had NO power to do anything at the time except voice his very urgent concerns. Because we KNEW what was going to happen. They ALL had their heads stuck in the sand.
FIL recently passed away. VERY recently. DH is also the executor of the will. While they are still in his home for the short term (very short term until we can get things in motion with his bank account, paying off his creditors, closing his estate, selling the house etc) they know they only have a very short window to figure things out. They had ZERO plans in all of this time. I don't know why they didn't have any back up or plans - they have just been waiting for the inheritance. Which will be the last thing issued from the estate. Which could take several months.
In the interim - ALL access to my FIL's money had to be taken away. Because HE is no longer here to grant permission to use it and his estate is in flux until the estate account is established and even then it would not be doling out dollars to them until everything else is closed.
Instead of planning for the future - proactively - they have had the "agreement" with my FIL for YEARS and have fully depended on him to pay their bills. Now that source is gone - and it wasn't unexpected, but it was fast from their perspective because they somehow thought they would have access or time AFTER he passed away? I don't know.
Why do I say all of that?
What is your sister's plan when you father passes away? I can tell you - she will turn to you to expect you to pay her electric bill. She likely has no plan to pay it herself. The guilt trips will start. What am I going to do? How am I supposed to pay my bills? You are going to let your SISTER live without electricity?
I don't mean to be cruel. I'm just living the other side of this right now and I know what happens when the original provider passes away and it's not pretty. Relationships can fall apart over money.
My advice. Stop this now before it gets worse. Medicaid issues most definitely can be a major problem. But even if they don't become an issue, there are even worse problems that can crop up that can root even deeper and cause further reaching implications.
There is an issue if your sister is still depending on him to pay her electric bill regularly.
We are having to get a lawyer involved to ensure that DH handles the executor role properly, something my DH never in a million years thought would be needed.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
My response is dependent on the fact your father is no longer competent, you are paying his bills for him (and keeping METICULOUS RECORDS of every penny into and out of ALL his accounts), and your sister has no contract stipulating your father pay her electric bill for some certain amount of time because-etc."
My answer also is dependent on the fact your father doesn't LIVE with your sister, because if he does then he owes a whole lot more than electric bill contribution; if he lives with sister then a care contract for shared living expenses should be done by you and sis WITH AN ATTORNEY and as a legal document/contract.
So I would be cautious about paying someone else's bills from the account.
There’s nothing wrong with helping someone over a hump. When help becomes a crutch it’s a problem for the giver and the taker.
It would have been more beneficial for your dad to work with your sister to figure out a plan for her to be able to help herself at some point down the line.
Even though your dad’s intentions were to help. He ended up crippling your sister because she became dependent upon him.
I think you should do whatever you feel is best for your dad. He matters as much as your sister does.
Are you interested in helping your sister get back on track by teaching her how to survive on her own without additional help from your dad? If you are, you can fulfill your dad’s wishes of your sister’s needs being met.
Best wishes to you and your family.
Has your father's financial situation changed? Is he no longer able to afford to continue paying his daughter's electric bill?
If the answer to the two above questions is 'No' then keep paying it. Really, it is not for you to decide to stop paying if it's what your father wants and he can afford to do it. Ask your father what he wants. Just because someone has POA for another person does not mean that the person they have it for no longer gets a say on anything. They're supposed to.
If his financial situation changed for some reason like a Medicaid spend-down had to be done, or he got placed in care and was doing cash pay, then that would be different.
Your post sounds to me like you want to be spiteful to your sister by not paying a bill that your father always paid for her.
You know she could get spiteful right back and if she has proof of their agreement she could report you to the probate court for abusing your POA status.
If your father cannot afford to pay this bill anymore explain that to your sister. Don't cut her off out of spite though.
Last year, things devolved and he had to go into residential care - home care just became impossible physically. But HE continued to allow them to spend his money. POA was NOT invoked.
My DH, who was the named POA, but again, NOT invoked, strongly urged all parties to fix the situation - but he had NO power to do anything at the time except voice his very urgent concerns. Because we KNEW what was going to happen. They ALL had their heads stuck in the sand.
FIL recently passed away. VERY recently. DH is also the executor of the will. While they are still in his home for the short term (very short term until we can get things in motion with his bank account, paying off his creditors, closing his estate, selling the house etc) they know they only have a very short window to figure things out. They had ZERO plans in all of this time. I don't know why they didn't have any back up or plans - they have just been waiting for the inheritance. Which will be the last thing issued from the estate. Which could take several months.
In the interim - ALL access to my FIL's money had to be taken away. Because HE is no longer here to grant permission to use it and his estate is in flux until the estate account is established and even then it would not be doling out dollars to them until everything else is closed.
Instead of planning for the future - proactively - they have had the "agreement" with my FIL for YEARS and have fully depended on him to pay their bills. Now that source is gone - and it wasn't unexpected, but it was fast from their perspective because they somehow thought they would have access or time AFTER he passed away? I don't know.
Why do I say all of that?
What is your sister's plan when you father passes away? I can tell you - she will turn to you to expect you to pay her electric bill. She likely has no plan to pay it herself. The guilt trips will start. What am I going to do? How am I supposed to pay my bills? You are going to let your SISTER live without electricity?
I don't mean to be cruel. I'm just living the other side of this right now and I know what happens when the original provider passes away and it's not pretty. Relationships can fall apart over money.
My advice. Stop this now before it gets worse. Medicaid issues most definitely can be a major problem. But even if they don't become an issue, there are even worse problems that can crop up that can root even deeper and cause further reaching implications.
There is an issue if your sister is still depending on him to pay her electric bill regularly.
We are having to get a lawyer involved to ensure that DH handles the executor role properly, something my DH never in a million years thought would be needed.
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