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ex-spouse died audit showed I have been paying for surviving spouse pension coverage for several years after she died. GM has agreed to cover my current wife, but they want $5,866.35. GM refunded me that amount I had overpaid` since ex-spouse's death, they sent a letter detailing why I need to pay $5,866.35 to cover my current wife to be effective 9-1-15. but I really need somebody qualified to review to make sure I owe this thanks.
Your ex-spouse died, but you have a surviving spouse? Or you've been paying for something called "surviving spouse pension coverage" even though your ex-spouse died?
Was GM notified when your ex died? Or did they just continue to bill you for spousal coverage?
It seems to me that GM should offset the $5866 with a credit for what you paid for surviving spouse coverage after your ex- died.
But honestly, I think this requires some with some GM specific benefit knowledge - I know GM benefits can get complicated. Are you unionized, and if so, can you speak with your union rep?
I hope someone else has more insight than I do, but it does seem to me that GM is way out of line in demanding close to $6K to provide coverage for your current wife, especially if it's only effective as of 9-1-15. Is this $5886K for back pension coverage?
thank you for understanding this issue. GM did send me a check for $4.061.25 for the overpayments made since my ex-wife died. I don't know why they want the $5,866 since my current wife's coverage doesn't go into effect until 9-1-15. I asked for explanation of their calculations, received it yesterday. Has to do with some kind of formula. I do not want to upset GM so I will pay them, I really need for my current wife to receive the spousal pension benefit, thanks.
Okay I will try to untangle this. (Yes, I am a lawyer, and before my retirement I had a specialty in corporate pension plans, although I don't know anything specific about GM.) I'm assuming you (not either of your spouses) are/were the employee, and that you are already retired. Or are you? Generally, the spouse who is married to the employee at the time benefits start is the surviving spouse, unless the spousal benefit is waived by both employee and spouse. Generally also, even if the spouse dies after the employee starts receiving benefits, the pension paid to the retiree continues to be reduced because that's how the actuarial reduction is figured. So I'm assuming your original spouse was still alive when your pension started and that you were receiving a reduced pension to take into account the potential death benefit for your spouse.
I'm surprised that the plan sponsor would allow the beneficiary to be changed after benefits commence, even if the original spouse dies and the retiree remarries. Maybe there are some facts here that I'm not understanding. Please correct anything I'm not understanding and fill in the chronology a bit more. Date of your spouse's death, date of your remarriage, and the date you started to receive your pension.
If you are a UAW retiree call or visit your old local or regional office or retired workers council office. They would be able to steer you to the right place. If you were a non bargaining unit, salaried employee there is surely a benefits office/phone number you can access.
With all due respect to the very wise and well informed previous advisors, you will spend the rest of your life trying to figure this out via this forum. You have to talk with someone who administrated this particular plan. I used to negotiate auto labor contracts. We used hired gun experts to come in and sort out the pension stuff. It's way beyond the capabilities of mere mortals.
These plans are ridiculously complicated and vary from one place and group of employees to the next. Don't worry about upsetting "Generous " Motors. They can't cancel your benefits for asking questions.
Great responses, thanks. Do you want me to send you the documentation? I called UAW, they said they had never heard of anybody having my problem. Fidelity administers GM pension, I have to communicate with GM through them. I am glad GM decided to make my current wife eligible for my pension benefits, but I still can't get around GM wanting the extra money. Thanks
Rocky, there's no way you could send hard copies of information to anyone through the Forum, and generally people don't provide e-mail addresses to other posters for security purposes. I'm not saying you're a threat - just saying that most people are pretty cautious.
I think the UAW is your best bet; I believe that's part of their function to assist members. You can also call Fidelity, but I would expect this will be a convoluted process to wind your way through bureaucratic channels to find someone who can provide an answer.
Rocky, correct me if I'm wrong. Your current spouse is younger than your deceased spouse. You started benefits after your spouse died and after you remarried, but GM did not know or did not realize that. So they calculated your benefit as if it were being paid jointly to you and your deceased spouse. Now they find out that it's being paid jointly to you and your new spouse, who is younger than your deceased spouse so is actuarially likely to live longer after your death than your prior spouse. Am I right so far?
If so, then in order to cover the likelihood of payments over a longer combined lifetime, your benefit should have been reduced by more than it was. You received in the neighborhood of $1K more than you should have, which increased to more than $5K after the refund they gave you.
These types of snafus happen fairly regularly in big pension plans, and part of my job was to figure out how to correct them in a way that made both the plan and the employee whole. Basically, to put everybody back in the same position they would have been if the mistake had not been made. I think that's the part you're not understanding. You current spouse is not being covered effective 9/1/15. Your current spouse is being covered back to the date you started receiving benefits. It's true you didn't die, but you could have, and if they discovered today that you died two years ago they'd have had to make the same correction. They're treating your current spouse as your spouse from the day you started benefits, and therefore every payment you've received was a little too much, because it should have been reduced a little bit more to account for a longer joint lifetime than the plan was assuming based on your deceased spouse's age.
This is what it looks like to me based on the facts you've given and the law as it exists. It's true every plan is different, but the basic spousal survivor rules are uniform (unless a plan wants to be more generous and subsidize it completely, for example). These rules are part of the Internal Revenue Code and IRS regulations. How to correct an error of this type falls under a general IRS rule of putting everybody back in the position they would have been in had the error not occurred.
gartnaz - In a typical pension plan, the surviving spouse pension is for life, regardless of remarriage. You should confirm that with the administrator of the pension plan - you should have contact information for them if you're already receiving the survivor pension.
CarlaB, GA, Windy, good Answers! Wow! And its sounds like you all figured this out for the Original Poster! I am impressed daily with the knowledge base from you Amazing Posters! And THAT is why I keep coming back!!! You learn something new every day! WhooHoo!
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
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APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
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APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
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If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
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This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
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You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
Is this a surviving spouse of a GM employee or does GM refer to grandmother? What is the $5866 for?
Your ex-spouse died, but you have a surviving spouse? Or you've been paying for something called "surviving spouse pension coverage" even though your ex-spouse died?
Was GM notified when your ex died? Or did they just continue to bill you for spousal coverage?
It seems to me that GM should offset the $5866 with a credit for what you paid for surviving spouse coverage after your ex- died.
But honestly, I think this requires some with some GM specific benefit knowledge - I know GM benefits can get complicated. Are you unionized, and if so, can you speak with your union rep?
I hope someone else has more insight than I do, but it does seem to me that GM is way out of line in demanding close to $6K to provide coverage for your current wife, especially if it's only effective as of 9-1-15. Is this $5886K for back pension coverage?
Any GM experts out here to help Rocky??
I'm surprised that the plan sponsor would allow the beneficiary to be changed after benefits commence, even if the original spouse dies and the retiree remarries. Maybe there are some facts here that I'm not understanding. Please correct anything I'm not understanding and fill in the chronology a bit more. Date of your spouse's death, date of your remarriage, and the date you started to receive your pension.
With all due respect to the very wise and well informed previous advisors, you will spend the rest of your life trying to figure this out via this forum. You have to talk with someone who administrated this particular plan. I used to negotiate auto labor contracts. We used hired gun experts to come in and sort out the pension stuff. It's way beyond the capabilities of mere mortals.
These plans are ridiculously complicated and vary from one place and group of employees to the next. Don't worry about upsetting "Generous " Motors. They can't cancel your benefits for asking questions.
I think the UAW is your best bet; I believe that's part of their function to assist members. You can also call Fidelity, but I would expect this will be a convoluted process to wind your way through bureaucratic channels to find someone who can provide an answer.
Good luck!
If so, then in order to cover the likelihood of payments over a longer combined lifetime, your benefit should have been reduced by more than it was. You received in the neighborhood of $1K more than you should have, which increased to more than $5K after the refund they gave you.
These types of snafus happen fairly regularly in big pension plans, and part of my job was to figure out how to correct them in a way that made both the plan and the employee whole. Basically, to put everybody back in the same position they would have been if the mistake had not been made. I think that's the part you're not understanding. You current spouse is not being covered effective 9/1/15. Your current spouse is being covered back to the date you started receiving benefits. It's true you didn't die, but you could have, and if they discovered today that you died two years ago they'd have had to make the same correction. They're treating your current spouse as your spouse from the day you started benefits, and therefore every payment you've received was a little too much, because it should have been reduced a little bit more to account for a longer joint lifetime than the plan was assuming based on your deceased spouse's age.
This is what it looks like to me based on the facts you've given and the law as it exists. It's true every plan is different, but the basic spousal survivor rules are uniform (unless a plan wants to be more generous and subsidize it completely, for example). These rules are part of the Internal Revenue Code and IRS regulations. How to correct an error of this type falls under a general IRS rule of putting everybody back in the position they would have been in had the error not occurred.