Mom wants to put granny in a home but we want to take her into our home. Can we stop her if she has POA?

Dawny, it's been over a year since you posted your original post above. We are wondering what was the final outcome.... are you a full-time caregiver for your Grandmother, or was she placed in a continuing care facility?

I see from your profile "answers" that you are back on the board this month. Please give us an update :)

Dawny, I've read all the replies and agree with most. Could be you just don't see everything your mom has to do for your granny, you only see the fun part. You don't see the cleaning, laundry, incessant repetition of questions, handling meds, transport to doctor, housekeeper, banker, nurse, dietician, entertainer, yard guy, accountant tasks that your mom has to do for your granny. And even tho granny is doing very well right now health-wise, what will you do when granny falls and breaks a hip or arm and has to be admitted for long term care with PT? And when granny comes home now disabled? If granny has any dementia or Alzheimer's, a traumatic event like a bad fall can cause her to decompensate from being able to take herself to the toilet to no longer being able to walk to the toilet or will need help cleaning herself. Are you prepared to give up your entire life, 24 hours a day? Perhaps give up any pets because they can get under your granny's feet or she walks into their food dishes and stumbles? Are you prepared to stay up after granny goes to bed to do the cleaning and laundry because you must watch granny every second she is awake? Are you prepared to quit your job, lose any benefits you may have? Are you prepared to NEVER be able to watch a TV program, listen to ONE single song, read a full page of a book, have a phone conversation over 2 minutes...because granny needs attention? And like the others have said, when granny injures herself (and it WILL happen), are you prepared to be investigated at length, be accused of hurting her? Are you financially savvy to handle your granny's finances? If granny doesn't have enuf money to pay the bills, doctors, any hospital stays, medicines, do you have extra money yourself to pay the remainder of what she needs? Can you build or do you have funds to purchase handicapped accessible bathroom rails, ramps? And even if other family members or even your mom herself tells you 'don't worry, we'll help you as much as we can'....do you really believe this will happen? When you DO get a few precious hours out of the house, it will be to grocery shop, pick up prescriptions, get the car inspected...then you are right back home to 24/7 care. Your heart IS in the right place, it truly is. But if you want to help, move in with your mom and granny for a month, let mom go live at your place, and handle it there, do a trial run. I repeat, I admire you for wanting to take care of granny, but honestly, sometimes a hospital care center setting is better for some family members. We can't do it all. Before I took care of my father full time, I was also a judgmental person, who can't do this, it looks easy....I'm sure when you mom says she doesn't WANT to care for her mom anymore, she means that she CANNOT care for her anymore. Good luck in your decisions, but pls do remember that once you commit, granny is your 24/7 responsibility. In her happy dancing singing times to the up in the middle of the night screaming nightmare times. Like the others said, we would love to hear from your again. Pls don't think anyone is ganging up on you for your good heart, but we have lived it and understand the pain that comes with care giving.

Jeannegibbs, I realize it's been over a year since our last post, but I felt I should elaborate. The "bottom of the barrel" ALF that my MIL stayed in was basically our only option at the time. When you're dependent on Medicaid, openings at other places are hard to come by, especially at the better facilities. The very best ones are privatized, super-expensive and do not accept Medicaid at all; or if they do, they don't offer secure units for residents/patients who are at risk of elopement.

As a result the closest-located placement we could get for her was about 40 miles away. As you might imagine, that doesn't exactly encourage daily visits; or even irregular "drop-in" times where you are likely to be able to monitor the staff's actual regular day-to-day treatment of your loved one. In our case, they knew that we were most likely to visit on certain days of the week (when my husband was not working); and so they knew to have her up and dressed/cleaned up from incontinence issues (or whatever) whenever they were expecting us. So a lot of the stuff that was going on there remained covered-up until my MIL's overall health situation started swiftly degrading from all the drugs they kept her on.

Now, to their credit, my MIL was admittedly not the easiest person for facility staff (or anyone, really) to get along with. She was a "loner" during most of her widowed years, extremely strong-willed, even when she was in better health; and not happy whatsoever with her situation of being away from her home. And that's exactly how she saw it; i.e., as being HER home and no one else's. She would scarcely allow anyone outside of her immediate blood-family (most of whom were disinterested in helping with her actual care) in her house, much less to go in "her" kitchen/bedroom. There was just one neighbor whom she knew somewhat and trusted; which was the main reason I could not serve as respite caregiver for my husband (before she went into the facility), despite how desperately he needed help.

To make matters worse, she had a thyroid problem most of her life that (like many elderly people her age) had made her cold-natured, especially in her extremities. Only with her, it was extreme. It would not be unusual for her (while still at home) to have the thermostat of her central heat pump turned up past 90º, even during the summertime. My husband would arrive there after work and he'd have to change into shorts and an undershirt, with the sweat just pouring off of him ... all the while she watched TV in her living room with a space heater aimed in her direction, asking, "Aren't you *cold*??"

But as ridiculous as that sounds, imagine her going from that, to a group living situation with hospital-like tile floors (which tends to make air space feel cooler, anyway; and they didn't allow area rugs in the rooms partly due to tripping hazards); and no individual climate control. It seemed a bit on the cool side even to visitors, during the winter. She was always complaining of being cold there; but there wasn't much we could do about it except keep her bundled up in sweaters and blankets.

But anyway, getting back to the situation with the family input being disregarded, she had been on hospital ER visits a number of times during her final months. The staff and administration of the ALF refused to give us access to her medical records for those visits, just expecting us to take their verbal account for everything that happened, for whatever little information they thought we should have. Meanwhile the hospital and their resident physician's office both backed them up—the physician refusing to sign a waiver (as they "didn't want to get in the middle" of things), and the hospital totally unwilling to give us her information without that damned signed release!! Despite having very specific access provisions in her DPOA (which was drafted by a very knowledgeable and experienced elder attorney), allowing us to serve as her agent and even make decisions on her behalf, they threw the HIPAA act in our faces and insisted that we pursue legal guardianship (which our attorney had previously advised us against).

I have always hated HIPAA, but when it is used maliciously to deny family input, oversight and care for an elder who can no longer speak up for or defend themselves (like against the overuse of chemical restraints), it is an insidious law that clearly needs reformation.

My apologies for the previous long discourse; but what it boils down to is that if we had the choice to have kept our mother at home, even with home health nurses or whomever coming in, we would've at least retained some say over the course of her treatment and care; whereas after she was institutionalized our autonomy as individuals and a family was completely taken away from us.

Haried2afrazzle, I am so very sorry that you had this deplorable situation to deal with! My heart goes out to you and your family.

I'm glad you mentioned that this home had a very poor rating and had been fined. I do not wish to minimize your experience in the least, but I will point out that this is a bottom of the barrel ALF. My mother and my step-daughter's mother (yes, my husband's first wife) are both in nursing homes right now. One in an almost rural setting the other in the heart of a major city. Both are getting excellent care and in both cases the family input is taken seriously.

There are certainly terrible places out there. Your case illustrates that. But a good facility can be exactly the best resolution to difficult care problems.

Dawnypawny21, you didn't give that much information regarding your exact situation; but your interest in your grandmother's welfare is commendable.

My mother-in-law, who also had Alzheimer's spent the last year of her life in three different homes. At the time we felt we truly had no other choice. Her other three children either lived out-of-state and/or were estranged from their mother with no active interest in her welfare, leaving my husband as her sole caregiver in her home while simultaneously working full-time. He did it for six years (following her husband's death) as she declined both physically and emotionally, much of it from her self-imposed isolation. Since we had almost no help from friends and couldn't afford to hire in-home help; we could barely get an evening off to go out to dinner or a movie for our wedding anniversary, much less a vacation or a weekend for ourselves, since whenever my husband was not working he was having to constantly be with his mother at her place. On the few occasions he had to go on work-related travel, he would call her and had a friend check in with her every day and fix her meals, etc. while she was told he was "working late" (otherwise she would've gotten very upset had she actually realized he was out-of-town).

Anyway, to try and make a very long story short, after the medical profession insisted (following a week's hospital stay) that she be placed in a home, that's when our nightmare escalated. Essentially what happened was, all control was taken away from her son (despite our having full DPOA and MPOA) to the point where we were rendered powerless to make any decisions or oversee her care. The secured assisted living facility where my MIL spent her last nine months used the HIPPA act as a "bully club" to deny us access to her medical and care information while simultaneously keeping her doped up on multiple antipsychotic medications, despite the fact that her Alzheimer's had long since progressed past the point where she could make these decisions for herself. I knew that woman—she hated taking medications at home; and would never have knowingly or willingly consented to all the crap they were giving her.

What we didn't know at the time was that this same facility had been fined by state authorities for a wrongful death that occurred less than a year prior and had dropped to a one-star rating. During the nine months she spent there, my mother-in-law was attacked and injured by another resident (nothing was done); contracted flu and pneumonia, was poorly fed at mealtimes, plagued by dehydration and urinary tract infections (partly because they stopped giving her cranberry juice); incurred a large bruise on her hip (which they never explained); and finally suffered a severe head laceration when, unsupervised ("for a few seconds," as the facility told it), she fell out of her wheelchair. She died three days later.

With this horrendous track record, some may wonder why we didn't just "simply" transfer her to another facility when the problems first started. Having to deal with Medicaid made that nearly impossible, since they held all the purse strings and moving her would've necessitated transferring back to a higher level of care, with all the accompanying paperwork and red tape (where we live, you make the changes and personally assume any and all financial responsibility with the facility; and only *Then* do they tell you whether or not you requalify for assistance). The local DSS (out-of county) had already cut her off once due to some little technicality they claimed was lacking. Also due to their incompetence they had underpaid the facility a few months prior, resulting in our receiving a bill for back due rent of over two thousand dollars.

My apologies for the length of this post. What I'm trying to illustrate is that, unfortunately once your relative gets into a facility, they take over all the day-to-day decisions and it's often not in the best interest of your loved one. They especially take advantage of those who don't have relatives or friends actively overseeing their care; or who are financially-challenged (and thus can't afford legal advocacy through the system). At least at home, the elderly person is not subjected to myriad health risks from other residents' communicable illnesses and unpredictable, aggressive behaviors; plus YOU retain at least some control over what goes on in your own home (or theirs). If we had it all to do over, things would definitely be done differently. But as they say, hindsight is 20/20.

I suspect Dawn has had enough answers for the time being...hence the lack of communication from her.

Dawnypawny21, I don't see any responses from you since your June 7 posting. What are your thoughts now? Would you like to answer some of the questions that have arisen?

It is not that tough, two declarations from doctors, within six months of each other.
At which time you ask to be the guardian...

IF GRANNY HAS NOT BEEN DECLARED LEGALLY INCOMPETENT IN COURT (which is very tough to do) SHE CAN DO WHATEVER SHE WANTS. POA HAS NO POWER.

Guardianship's are done with a motion in/from court, but are not necessarily done with your families best interest in mind, if your family is feuding(not in the best interest of your grandmother) the court can decide, that none of you are capable and appoint themselves or court appoint a guardian at litem who could then appoint a guardian, and a bank to finance the sale of property or asserts, in the blink of an eye and the family remain unpaid caregivers...getting her to revoke POA is much easier...

POAs can be revoked by the person who granted it. They need not be permanent. Guardianships are more complicated and expensive.

Yes it is possible, especially if she doesn't want to go into one.
We were able to fight the POA's using elder care abuse, because she was able to say over and over, that she did not want to go into a nursing home, but she also has to be able to say that she wants you to do it, and it can be verbal, make sure you initiate a visit with senior abuse while she is visiting you...

VickiRuff, so sorry for your terrible experience. My mom was in a rehab that was rated the best in the county and after open heart surgery she was totally neglected. My friend went to see her as my husband had surgery for cancer and I was swamped! She didn't have a call bell she was all pee when my friend walked in, needless to say she let them have it! So my point was I have seen both good and bad and research is important. There was a company my husband worked with and they help you place your loved one and they are researched before hand. The company is called Concierge Care Advisors. I hope this helps.

I think pipruby nailed it. Take care of granny right where she is, 24/7 so mom doesn't have to do it anymore. That will give you a good picture of what you are facing. Send Mom on a vacation, and try it for two weeks before you make a decision. That will be the reality check.

MooMoo. I am curious where you live. I have heard nursing homes are better in more progressive places like California. Not here. Statistics are often misleading. The home my parents were in is supposedly "the best in town." They said "3 nurses on each floor." Yes...one on morning, one on afternoon, and one on evening. The evening nurse was responsible for all 10 floors! Very misleading.

Cmagnum...unless Granny has been declared mentally incompetent, she can do what she wants and POA can't stop her. Im 50 and my POA is 20. I make my own decisions until I am declared legally incompetent....then she takes over.

Your presenting question concerns can you stop your mother from putting your grandmother in a nursing home if your mother has POA? The simple answer is no.

You can't stop this unless you want to go through the painful and expensive task of becoming your grandmother's guardian which would mean taking your grandmother to court, having two doctor's testify that she is no longer competent, and then hoping the judge picks you as the guardian. If you chose to do this, you might damage your relationship with your mother.

My dad has Alzheimer's and within a year of being diagnosed with this already has trouble knowing who I am. He is 89 and in otherwise good health. I don't know how long she has had Alzheimer's, but I share my dad's experience to say that this disease can cause a person to decline very rapidly and they do become more difficult to help 24/7 by just one person. If your mother has been caring for her mother 24/7 solo, then she is ready for a break and probably can tell that it is time for your grandmother to go to a nursing home.

How long has she lived with your mother?

How long as it been since you lived with them?

Why does your mother object to Granny moving in with you?

How old are you? Are you married? Kids?

A little information would help with more specific responses.

All nursing homes are not created equal. Look around your area, check reviews and state evaluations. To be honest most of the the time elderly only need 1 shower a week because their skin is dry. Good peri care and skin checks for sores and break downs are crucial though as well as daily oral care. Where I live I have not seen 15 patients to 1 CNA but that's why you always do research. Best of luck. It's scary but my mom in law went right into an Alzheimer's nursing home facility and she is loved and cared for and my husband sees her frequently during the week. Just because you place them there doesn't mean you can't participate in their daily living.

Warning: Assisted Living and Memory Care are appealing: .great food, amenities, activities etc. but typically short- term solutions. Average stay is 2 years. My husband's dad just adjusted after 9 months....joined activities, made friends...finally happy. Now has 30 days to get out because they decided he needs more care. Memory Care might keep him for a year and next step is nursing home. Depressing hospital room, hospital food, 1 aide caring for 15 patients, shower once a week. Just realize its a stepping stone and not permanent. Don't let the salespeople fool you.

Taking care of you granny right now may work, but Alzheimer's can advance rapidly. Having your house on 24 hour lockdown means you are a prisoner too. Cleaning up urine three or more times a day means your laundry will escalate. When the paranoia sets in it can be very painful to hear she thinks you are stealing from her. I took mom to the emergency room when she had a bad nose bleed and they called in a social worker to question me! They later determined her blood pressure meds needed adjustment. While my mom didn't like the assisted care facility at first, later she enjoyed being around people from the same generation experiencing the same issues she was. The caregivers there are very patient and can go home at the end of their shifts and take vacations. It will be easier on her now to make the move. As the confusion of Alzheimer's progress it can be even more scary for her. My mom lived with me almost a year, and for the first month she was fine.... She then became agitated and bored and things began to change. Homes are set up to provide a more social and therapeutic environment. Lots to think about...

Dawn, my boss's wife has Alzheimer's. He has a paid Caregiver that comes to the house during the week, and he's the Caregiver evenings and weekends. It's exhausting for him as he puts in a very busy week at work.

My boss's wife use to love to dance Scottish music every morning with him before he left for work, now she rarely does that.

Just a few weeks ago my boss had to bring their bedroom down to the family room as his wife was having trouble with the stairs. Gosh when she was visiting the office last year, she was up and down the office stairs with no problems at hall.... how quickly that has changed.

If your Grandmother can go into a "memory care" facility now it would be easier for her to get to know the Staff and the other patients who are there. She could make new friends. If you wait, she might resist as her illness advances.

I would suggest that you take over for your mom for a couple weeks, giving her a vacation, and to test what it is like to be there 24/7.

Your mom has cared for her mom for many years and my guess is that granny's needs have increased to the point of needing outside the home care. One of the things you can do is coordinate with mom and others about visiting granny where ever she goes.

I am caring for my Dad (94) and it is more taxing than I imagined. And he is relatively easy to care for compared to others on this site. I am tired, have trouble getting away for a weekend, having dinner with friends, having alone time...it all adds up.

You can love your grandmother in different ways that will matter.

Dawny, best of luck to you, follow your heart. Talk to your Mom and make it happen, after all, shes 97 ! She will get lack of care, infections and down straight down hill if she goes to a nursing home, even if its just depression in there. If you loose the battle, go to the nursing home fulltime and it will be fantastic for her.
VickiRuff: I am with your 110% and doing the same here with my Mom. Everyone thinks "why dont you put her in a nursing home?" Never!
Theboss: I dont mean this in a bad way but at your age you could go before your husband if you dont get help. Please talk to your children , call the doctor for a social worker to come to your house to give you options. Best of luck to you, you are a trooper but time to take care of you now and get help.

Bookluvr is right. Only the person who is giving 24/7 care knows what's really going on. It's amazing how my mom changed when company was here. And as a result my sister were villanized trying to explain the real situation. Our family is now so splintered and not working together at all because they all thought they were seeing the real "mom" but they weren't and so our suggestions were taken as bossy and manipulative. Anyway, I'd have a real good talk with your mom about the day to day granny. What's she like at night? Does she like to shower? Eat? Drink water? Are there times she becomes confused and unmanageable? So many things go on, you are only seeing what granny wants you to see I'm afraid. Maybe go stay a couple weeks there first. I'm speaking from experience, you are probably not seeing the whole picture. But I could be wrong, at any rate, really think this one thru. Moving granny will be hard on her with Alzheimer's. Two moves if it doesn't work out with you, even double trouble. But hey, I admire you for wanting to so this. I really do. I just hope you know what your getting into. Good luck, d

"TheBoss" - who's helping you? I don't want to be cheeky, but it strikes me that a person of 80 is entitled to be seeking care, not just giving it.

Vicki, I wouldn't dream of contradicting you about your experiences; but don't have a special go at the US for its treatment of elders. Wherever there is a materialistic society combined with high life expectancy, the same problem - give or take an attitude or two - prevails. The issue is effectively global.

***If your loved one has not been declared legally incompetent she can do whatever she wants.
***If your loved one wants to name you POA and HCP she can simply fill out new forms. They supersede the old ones.

I was in your exact situation and wanted to care for my parents at home with hired help. My brothers put them in a nursing home and did everything possible to exclude me...even having me removed from their Health Care Proxy. (They are confused and will sign anything their kids ask them to.) i called Adult Protective and I finally realized they could do whatever they wanted as long as they were not declared incompetent, so I took them home. Adult Protective Services was called to inspect, and were impressed with the care I was providing. Note: I did have to purchase/rent ramps and other necessary safety equipment. You can find these items used on e-bay, or get them for free at many local fire departments and such. Research everything online!!!

Everyone said I was crazy, I didn't know what I was getting in to, blah, blah. Taking them home was the BEST decision I ever made. Nursing homes are ALL understaffed. The care and quality of life are atrocious. (My parents were in a very "reputable" home.) I ended up quitting my job to care for them myself at the nursing home for 12 hours each day. Unless someone has observed all day for several days they have no idea how substandard and depressing it is. My parents would be dead by now if they had stayed there. My mom was always dehydrated and my dad went for weeks with untreated UTIs

The US is one of the only countries that puts their elders in these institutions. Most countries take care of their elders at home. It is no different than sending your old family pet to the pound.

Yes it is difficult. So is having children, caring for pets, and getting a degree. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. Where there's a will there's a way.

You will definitely need help and there are many options available. Talk to a lawyer about applying for Medicaid. They know how to transfer monies before applying. Medicaid will assess the situation and most likely provide some covered hours (by Medicaid approved caregivers) in the home. Go online to find Medicaid approved caregivers. You have a choice in who you hire...don't let anyone tell you that you don't.

There are also day programs for seniors which offer social/interactive activities, Meals on Wheels for inexpensive meals, doctors who make home visits, free prescription delivery (some Rite Aid stores) and a variety of other helpful resources that no one seems to know about.

God Bless You.

Please look at the entire picture. How and when do you get breaks? What about money? Talk to other caregivers. Is there an adult family home near so you could go everyday and bring her home some of the time? If this works out for you God bless and best wishes, you are special.

As an 80 year old caregiver, trying to care for my 83 year old partner with dementia and other health issues, I hope you realize what is involved. I have been looking for relief from this 24/7 job, which I am not up to handling anymore, and have found no place that will take him. He has been kicked out of two nursing homes recently for fighting with the caregivers and general disruptive behavior. Our slim savings are almost gone. He has kidney failure, has had 4 major surgeries since 2003, and takes 14 pills a day. We have been together 14 years, and he has no children or other family. I have been hospitalized twice in the last 6 months and faced with finding someone to care for him while I'm away. My health is rapidly declining as well. The VA will not help. He does have a pension from them for aid and attendance, but it doesn't pay for much. If you have the opportunity to get your grandmother into a regular nursing home while she is still able to get in -- be thankful. Things can change very fast. My own children are not aware of how difficult this is. They love him, too, and think I am cruel not to want to keep him home with me! Nobody else can take him. I am barely able to talk to anybody about this without crying. He is currently recovering from pneumonia and bronchitis,, and I am just getting over bronchitis. I feel that I'm at the end of my rope. Think long and hard before taking this on. My reward for doing this is being called "The Boss or The Big Boss" because I'm always pressuring him about showering, or taking his pills!