What to do about Mom who fakes strokes?

Again Dorthy, well done!!! :~)
Ok, as an aside & from what you've said I really don't believe your "M" has this, but for other people's awareness.
There is an illness/condition called NEA (Non Epileptic Attack). This "mimics" epilepsy symptoms/attacks. The difference being that on coming out of the "fit" the patient may well continue as though nothing had happened.
The person with this is not necessarily faking/pretending. I put it this way because sadly some manipulative folk would do just that.
However, I was diagnosed with this condition 3 months ago. I hate it, I'm feel stupid when it happens & it nearly lost me my driving license.
The fact is that it is a very real illness that I can not control, though when an "attack" is over I can continue a conversation as though there was no break. The Dr. doesn't know why it happens & at the moment for me no meds or cure. I do know it's worse if I'm overwhelmed by life.
Just to reiterate I don't believe Dorthy's Mum has this, and Munchausen by proxy is itself a nasty invidious illness. Stay safe Hun, enjoy the beach and on return make a You centred life. I for one would appreciate knowing how your getting on. Smiles from Lucy in UK

Dear Dorothy; Oh my!

Stay strong and have a lovely break. Let us know how things go.

Dorthy, I couldn't be more admiring of the way you have handled all of this. Of *course* your father was furious! - you called your mother's bluff good and proper, undoing all his years of hard work enabling her. Anyway, no need to comment further - just to say the strain must have been enormous, so make sure you really relax and enjoy your break at the beach :)

There actually may be something entirely as yet undiagnosed, such as syncopatic episodes. Sometimes the teaching hospitals can be more adept at probing for causes of these mysterious types of episodes after all else seems to have been exhausted..

However, since your parents have taken the action that they have, you have a legitimate legal if not common sense reason to stay away and move on with your life.

It sounds as if their reactions are really spontaneous and irrational, and certainly without thinking of short or long term repercussions.

It wouldn't surprise me though if you get another call asking for help, as I think that the next time an episode occurs and your father needs help getting your mother up off the floor but doesn't want to call EMS, he'll call you, thinking that you're like a puppet that can be jerked up and down when his need arises.

But remember a threat is a threat; that doesn't mean that a responding officer would consider that being on their property would rise to the level of arrest. And your parents don't have the legal authority to arrest anyone.

Still, I think that's a good signal and an excellent exit opportunity for you to move on with your own life. And don't renege or look back.

Safely arrived at the beach. What a relief to be away from the drama at home.

Babalou, apparently you could not be more right when you say that in the past illness should be kept in the family. I received an email from my parents this morning that my Attorney asked me to FWD to him saying - now that I have embarrassed and publicly humiliated them I am disowned and if I step onto their property they will have me arrested for trespassing.

My attorney says after speaking with the Dr.'s yesterday that (among other possible diagnoses) it is possible that dad has a form of munchausen by proxy where mom is concerned, more so than simply enabling her. I didn't know that was possible, was a "thing".

Yes, as I said before - mom has had every kind of test, MRI,CAT scans, tested for epilepsy, her meds, her vitamins, drug interaction between them, toxicology screening for environmental poisoning, allergies, the list goes on and on, and nothing- nothing ever explained her sudden inability to walk, speak properly, feed her herself, go to the bathroom - basically becoming a limp rag doll that would last for days or weeks at a time, (with the exception of her momentary "slips" when she wanted something and she would snap out of it just long enough to say or do what she wanted, then return to being completely limp) followed by her "recovery time" that would be at least a week, all the while warning that if she wasn't getting what she wanted she could "relapse"

I will stay away from their "dance", I see now that only psychiatric help will do either of them any good.. besides I have to stay away now,or I'll get arrested!! LOL ;o) WOW how things change in a day.

Something I should mention, before I met my husband, his mother regularly "passed out" on the street, would be taken to the ER and they would find "nothing wrong". Family chalked it up to drama, mental illness, attention seeking. I took her to a neurologist. She had a seizure disorder. Has your mom ever had an EEG or an MRI or other imaging or electrical study of her brain?

EMTs are good at picking up critical stuff like stroke, Heart attack and drug overdose. they cannot pick up the stuff that is more subtle and ultimately less life threatening. It doesn't mean that it's not going on.

The dance that your family is engaged in seems mired in the idea that the "illness" has to stay within the family. This is actually quite common, at least in the old days, with seizure disorders, which were considered shameful. Is it at all possible that your mother HAS and KNOWS she has a seizure disorder but won't OWN it? Just some early morning musing. The idea might be to get off the ER/EMT/STROKE train and transfer to her being seen by a neurologist who will work her up for the SYMPTOMS that she presents with.

Dorothy; I think you've done the right thing. You've informed the authorities and your lawyer of what you think is going on. You're absenting yourself from the situation. I think perhaps you should consider how to make that "lack of availability" of yours a little more permanent. After all, you are not responsible for your mother's health (mental or otherwise) or her actions. If dad calls, you can say no. You can block their calls. You can (and I think I would) move away. They seem to be trying to draw you into their unhealthy dance; you need to change the record.

The thing is, I wouldn't stick around at this party. You are giving both of them a target for their anger; by doing this, you remain the third leg of the triangle and keep the whole thing going. If you step back, it may collapse and your mom may get the help she needs. Collapse here is a good thing; sad to say, with a great many elders who wont' accept help, some BIG THING has to occur before real, enduring change happens.

It has been an interesting two day's. The BBQ was uneventful as far as mom's "health". She was funny and engaging with no problems at all walking, talking, feeding herself. A complete "recovery"

Until about 3 this morning when dad called and said "you were right, the party was too much for mom apparently, she got out of bed to go to the bathroom, and I can't get her back to bed, can you come help?" I asked what does that mean you can't get her back to bed? She's laying on the floor and I can't get her up to get her to bed he says. I asked if she fell, he said "no she just sort of slid down the wall and now I can't get her back to bed"

So I went over, with my phone on video and there she was on her side laying on the floor, I knelt next to her asked if she could hear me and she just mumbled . I told dad to call an ambulance, he said no we just needed to get her to bed, all the excitement of the day was to much for her and in a few days she would be fine.

I walked over picked up their phone and called 911. Dad began yelling for me to hang up as I was trying to get outside and onto the front porch telling dad she needs an ambulance over and over and trying to telling the operator the address and that my mom looks as if she has had a stroke. Once I made it outside dad slammed the door just furious!!

The ambulance and the police came, dad AND mom met them door (mom acting as if she were very sleepy) insisting that she was fine, that I was over reacting, that she had a "slight dizzy spell and dad called me to help "steady her" to get her back to bed.

I handed one of the EMT's my phone and said "I don't know how much recorded, but watch this."

I informed them that mom fakes these "strokes" often, she needs help.The EMTs told dad that even though she appears to be fine at the moment, based on the video I was right to call them and she needed to be evaluated if for nothing else a possible drug overdose the police agreed and mom was taken for observation.

The police talked to dad, but I couldn't hear what was said.

I went to the hospital but dad wouldn't let anyone tell me anything, even what room she was in.

I reached my attorney this morning, with my permission he told her Dr's and the police of my concerns and our conversation last week, the police said there really wasn't much that could be done, at most they could follow up on calls to my parents address and when the report is that it is another non emergency, charge them with her actions resulting in nuisance calls.

Her Dr told my attorney "while he can't discuss individual cases, he could say that it is difficult to force a psychiatric evaluation -if they can't find anything medically wrong, if all the test come back normal, if they want to leave the hospital they have to be released."

I saw them come home, mom is walking fine, and I can tell by dads body language, he is still furious!!

So.. there was nothing wrong .. again.!!

But at least THIS time I did something to prevent mom from dragging out this "recovery" for the next week.

I called my friend who has the little place at the beach where I was going to take mom later this month and she is going to let me drive down tomorrow and she said I can stay as long as I like. I have already turned off my phone, so if there is another "performance" in the early hours - dad will have to come to my house and ring my doorbell this time.. and if he does,I will stay right here and call 911 .. I'm not even going over there.

Thank you all for the advice and support, I wouldn't have had the guts to stand up to my parents without your help.

CentralMassach1, I don't take what you say as"sounding bad" at all, it's a valid question, I don't know how to explain it except to say- actors pretend to have all sorts of ailments including strokes/mini strokes, I don't know how they do it either, but they do - and so does my mom

Verbal battles rarely work with people who have mental issues. There is something going on with her and if the way you have been handling it doesn't work, then I wouldn't keep repeating it.

I think that seeing a therapist yourself is an excellent idea.Maybe they can help with helping you set some boundaries. I wish you luck.

I guess I must be naive or something, but who would know how to "fake" a stroke? I guess I know why they would want to (for attention), but I think faking a stroke would be very difficult. Doesn't it leave you with possible long-lasting side effects such as slurred speech, maybe a little one-sided paralysis, etc. depending on the severity of the stroke? I don't mean to sound bad, just not sure if it's possible to "fake" a stroke.

Thank you LucyCW, I appreciate that... now that I've taken a stand I can't back down.

GardenArtist, I have tried the "just go along" the last 8 months they have lived next door, fed her, bathed her, dressed her taking her to the bathroom- wiped her and all it has done is encourage mom to fake more frequent strokes to get her way and get attention....she needs to go back to a psychiatrist, or she needs medication or both. Dad needs to make her get the help she needs and stop enabling her and trying to force me to enable her as well. I will be looking for a therapist tomorrow for myself, I need to learn to break the "I must obey my parents" thing I have going on or I don't think I will have the will to stand up to them for the long run. As well as the resentment I am starting to feel towards both of them... it just really irritates me that there are so many who REALLY do need help, who really have had strokes, and instead of enjoying the good health they have for their age, and enjoying their later years, mom is crying wolf all the time and dads life, time and energy is wasted literally wiping her behind! It has begun to anger me.. I need help from a therapist dealing with that.

Mincemeat, oh yes, I am expecting mom has something "big" planned to punish me and put me back into my place after I laid down the law Saturday, either today or later this week, and I am nervous, I admit it

Dorthy Well Done You!!!!
Stick to your guns, you've made a great start.
I agree that there comes a time with elders/dementia when there's no point in reminding them of the reality the rest of us live.
Clearly your's aren't there yet though.
I don't know you, but for what it's worth I'm so proud of you. If I wasn't confined to a wheelchair I'd be turning cartwheels in your honour :~)

Dorthy, you're doing what I used to do and recognized eventually that it only fueled the fire, especially with someone who needs to manipulate and takes pleasure in putting someone on the spot enough to upset their emotional equilibrium.

Now I just agree; the issue dies a quiet death.

If you agree with your mother and just say "yes, that's a good idea," that instantly negates her reason to be dominant. She'll find another issue to provoke, but just say the same thing and go on with whatever you're doing.

The issue of paying for the ambulance is a legitimate one but also one which provokes anger. Make your own plans and decisions but keep them to yourself.

I do understand the need to bring reality and rationality into the conversation of the moment, but as elders decline, that rationality isn't always available to be introduced into the conversation.

Go with the flow and see how things work out.

Prepare for an Academy Award Performance! You deserve a break!

Thank you all for your responses, support and advice.

There has been new upheaval here. and now what I suspect is the "calm before the storm"

I have been planning a BBQ tomorrow for Labor day for a few weeks that my parents are aware of. Yesterday while I was over there mom asked what time my son and his family would be here because she "is still light headed and wobbly and wanted me to have already setted before they arrive."

I told her I didn't think they should come over with her still not feeling steady, and with a smile she said " you are right, I wouldn't want to relapse, they can come here and pay their respects."

I said, no I don't think that is a good idea either, I will just let everyone know you have had a bad week and need your rest.

Instant anger!!

You can not stop me from having visitors! she snapped, I said no, but most will respect that someone has been ill and leave them alone so they can rest.

We will just show up uninvited then dad says, I said ok, but know that if mom has an "episode" I will call 911. He reminds me that "she is his wife and he won't allow me to call if he doesn't think it's necessary" I reminded HIM that it is my property and I not only have the right-but the obligation to ensure the health and wellbeing of my guests.

Angry to the point of being red in the face dad said "you will pay for the ambulance - not me!" I said " by knowing the insurance won't pay for a non emergency- you are admitting there would be nothing wrong mom first of all, and second it is not the person that calls 911 who pays for a non emergency- it is the one who rides in the ambulance, so you will pay that bill OR you will explain why you will not allow her to be taken to the hospital when she clearly appears to be having a stroke, you should keep in mind there will 2 dozen or so people at my house who will back me up that 911 should have been called before you make that decision"

I was then told to leave their house as I am an ungrateful (fill in a list of curse words) daughter.

I went home just shaking!! I am amazed at myself at hard is to stand up to my parents, but very proud that I did it.

I went over this morning and was met at the door by mom who acted like yesterday never happened, sweet and loving, up and around with no "symptoms" and didn't ask me to do anything for her or around the house. On my leaving she asked what time they should come over tomorrow and I repeated I didn't think it was a good idea and I'd call 911 if she had an episode - her response with a big smile was "oh don't worry about any of that, I feel fine! love you- see you tomorrow"

So we will see what happens tomorrow.

Dorthy: Your mother is mentally ill. Get her to a psychiatrist NOW!! FAKING A STROKE IS TERRIBLE! She'd best be careful what she wishes for!

Sounds like she has been diagnosed with CADASIL but does not want to tell you. My wife's mother had it from her father, and passed it onto her kids, discovered it in ’92. The kids could have taken care of themselves and planned their lives better had they known, not to mention getting tested early. It is possible that you are possibly missing a huge piece of the problem by failing to understand arteriopathy.

I actually knew someone who did something very similar to this. What do you need to do is to have a little talk with both the paramedics and ER staff. Then, step back and let them handle it, they're trained to handle this kind of thing. When someone abuses the system as you're describing, medical personnel will know it and they will be able to handle it. One of the first things they'll consider doing is calling social services and recommending mental health services. Meanwhile, what you may do is drop this person from your insurance coverage if you added them to your insurance policy. I mention this because you say that you cannot afford request squad rides and ER visits, which is exactly why I suggested dropping this person from your coverage. Best yet, just don't pay the bill out of your own pocket, make this person pay it out of their pocket. That way, when they ask where all their money went they will know the cost of their habit. Until someone has to pay for their own mistakes, they will never learn anything, and it's about time that this person is required to start paying their own out-of-pocket expense for what they're doing. Another smart move would be to call either the APS or a lawyer who specializes in elder care matters. You should get help in transferring best person into a nursing home if you haven't done so already. Nursing home staff will know how to curb the problem that you're having.

dorthy
kudos to you. It is so hard. someone once said here that just as our parents had to make decisions for us when we were younger (many of which we didn't like) now we have to make decisions for them which they won't like. but if you believe it is in their best interest then sometimes you have to do the tough love or just say no thing. Hang in there. You need to set limits for your mom. My MIL was diagnosed with a heart condition and since I am a nurse she would always call me when she had a problem I would tell her that she needed to call her doctor but she didn't want to "disturb" him. finally I got to the point that I would tell her I couldn't diagnosis her issue or tell her to take an extra pill or two and suggested that she go to the ER to find out what was wrong. She got really angry with me but she needed to use the medical system to see what was going on and not rely on advice from me. Plus if there truly was a problem her MD needed to know about it.

My husbands grandmother used to fake strokes and GI bleeds all the time. (she would claim she vomited blood but no one would ever see it) Multiple trips to the ER but no admissions. These incidents would always occur if we were going to go out of town, if she knew we had an event to go to, or if we were entertaining at our home (esp. if it was an event for my family and she was not invited). My husband decided that he would call her every morning at a certain time and talk with her about how she felt and what her plans were for the day. I think getting that attention was what she needed. It didn't completely eliminate her "symptoms" but it made the phone calls from her decrease. We got her involved in a senior citizen center. Her town had a bus for seniors and they would pick her up every morning (4-5 days a week) and take her and then bring her home. It seemed that the contact with others and the phone calls made a difference. It is not nice to say but when we did go away he would still call her and not mention that we were away. She never had an incident during those times. Of course, his brother was the back up if something had happened and we made sure we were never all away at the same time. She managed to continue to live on her own in her senior apartment until her dementia took over and she was wandering the halls at night and disturbing the other tenants. She had to be placed in a skilled facility.

For those of you who are beating up on this young lady, quit it. She may not be a doctor, bit neither are you. And IF any of you IS a medical professional, kudos. Youre STILL not walking her day to day. If toure a caregiver, thats already difficult enough. I KNOW. And shes herr to ask for help, vent, and hopefully get to a better place regarding her mom. It is HER mom, and ahe knows HER mother. Parent or notz some can and do take FULL advantage, and make it miserable for those who do the work of caregicing with no help, no pay, and no respite. Honey, override dads wiahes and think of your aanity. IF she actually is sick, then you need to know. Because if she ShOuLd ever actually stroke, it will be the boy who cried wolf, and u dont want that. My heart certsinly goes out to you, dear.

You're doing brilliantly, Dorthy. Such a hard situation, and I'm glad you found AC to come and let off steam even when nothing else helps :)

I think pretty much everything's been covered; but just on the point that the boy who cried wolf did eventually meet the wolf… As well as documenting visits, which is a great idea, make your own objective observations of your mother's general state so that you will be alert to any real changes that might need investigating. Breathing, colour, appetite, speech, that kind of thing - you'll know best what should be on the checklist.

GardenArtist thank you for the suggestion to document my visits. That is an excellent idea! I will buy a digital recorder to record my conversations while at their house.

When she has her next "stroke" I will attempt to record her with my phone without their knowing so I will have documentation of her "slips", for instants once while she was "unable" to speak, nothing coming from her other than mumbling gibberish and couldn't use her arms or hands so need help from me and dad holding her cup to drink from the straw, I brought her the wrong soft drink, and with the first sip both of her hands came up- SHOVED the cup away and she said perfectly clear "that's not my Coke!" I apologised, went and got a Coke and she went right back to muttering nonsense and her hands and arms went limp again. This is but one example.

If the neighbors do get involved you are right, it would be good for me to have some of these lapses in her "I had a stroke" performance to show should I need them. Thanks again.

If it's any consolation, I've seen a variation of this kind of behavior in a surviving wife. In that case the person enabling her was her daughter, the caregiver.

The advice of the attorney was actually illuminating for me. My relatives and I saw this happening but were really powerless to do anything about it. As long as the caregiver daughter responded, mother continued to manipulate. I never really saw it for the relationship it was though, even though the mother had always been that kind of person advising (not asking) family to "do this" or "do that."

Daughter might groan or scowl a bit, but she grudgingly complied, meekly as a matter of fact. Daughter then picked up on the behavior and began attempting to manipulate her relatives, engaging in the kind of behavior the attorney predicted with her standard theme being "everybody's mean to me."

Now I'm wondering if this is a generational dynamic? Learned behavior?

As to the attorney's advice, it seems as though he's been through this himself and has some real insight. I still would be concerned about misrepresentations and false tales to the neighbors, who might eventually call APS. So I'd be very careful about what I did, even to the point of documenting the times when you've left (such as today), in the event that somebody doesn't see through your mother's behavior and decides that intervention is necessary.

You could alert the neighbors as to what your mother might say, but I feel uncomfortable even suggesting that because it's essentially sharing private family dynamics with them. Maybe others have had some experience with this. I'm thinking as well of some of the neighbors and friends who post here with complaints about how the family is ignoring their parent or loved one.

Thank you all for your responses, and STP your english is fine, thank you for posting ;)

I saw an attorney, and long story short is as long as dad is of sound mind my hands are pretty much tied, which you all have already told me, but I guess I just needed to dot all my "i"s and cross all my "t"s...

He said with me living next door to my parents now, if I decide to not help dad with mom, to expect one or both of them to go beyond the "you don't love me" routine,
that I should prepare myself for them to attempt to shame me in to resuming coming over at every little whim by telling the neighbors - subtlety- that they would be doing better if I wasn't to busy to and lend a hand, but that I am far too busy to help at all, or words to that effect.

I hadn't thought of that, but I can see mom doing just that, sitting on the front porch waiting for one of the neighbors to stop and ask how they are and then "I was really sick with a mild stroke and Dorthy couldn't be bothered to help her dad take care of me so now he is sick and I'm just doing the best I can to take care of us both".. yep,.. I can see it now.

He said all you can do to try to head that off is make sure you wave "sweetly" to whichever neighbors you can as you are going in and out of your parents house,if they question you on it tell them Mom and dad don't remember things like they used to and leave it at that, don't elaborate, just Mom and dad don't remember things like they used to. He suggested I check on them at least once a week physically and daily with phone calls and emails after I begin to refuse help with Mom , simple because of their age they need some one to keep an eye on them, But to think long and hard before I start this, he said just like a child will have a tantrum to get their way, adults will too, if I back down and give in and begin helping to take care of mom again because my dad is becoming ill from doing it all himself - before dad takes mom to the dr to find out what if anything is wrong, then just like giving into a child because you don't want to hear the screaming anymore I will be creating a brat ! Eventually the child learns throwing a fit just makes him tired and does not get him his way, and I have to hang on until my parents learn that.. OR until someone else in the family (like I did when they were living with my brother thought I have more time to fill her need for attention, let them move next door to me) after hearing how "bad" things are volunteers to step in.

So, good advice or no?

Since she's still "recovering" I gave my first "pushed back" when I went over earlier this afternoon. Mom asked if I'd give her a sponge bath and wash her hair for her again because she was tired today and "your dads arthritis in his shoulders makes it hard for him". I said " Oh well I will go home then so you can take a nap and when you get up you can take your shower and give dads shoulders a break" Of course she got up set and started "no no no don't leave", but I left her standing at the door saying "I don't want to nap right now" I could hear dad in the back ground saying it was ok, he'd help her.

It sounds easy enough as I write it out...just say no... but it was hard...this is going to be tough, but it truly is push come to shove time, this is going to be a battle of the wills, and the short (but seems so long too) 8 months of habit/training/conditioning/manipulation that has become the norm since they moved in next door - I have to un-learn- I just hope and pray dad comes to his senses before he gets too sick.

thanks for letting me vent, get this out of my system, think out loud, whatever it is I am doing... I have a feeling I might be doing a lot more of "it" before all said and done .

Dorthy, my folks did a variation of this - Dad was always fearful that my mom would have a stroke if she was upset, because her mom had had a massive stroke. A shorthand evolved - family not wanting to do what she wanted, Mom: I have a splitting headache, Dad: Your mother's going to have a stroke, Kids would back down, and the headache would be cured. This was their dynamic and because Dad was genuinely worried and fretful, we'd demur to help him. As adults, we learned to have convos with her privately to short circuit this dance.

Your parents dynamic won't change. Just see that you don't alter your plans, trip in Oct. for example, because of their issue. It's risky to assume it's always a ploy - my mom actually did have a couple TIAs a few years ago and I'm glad we treated them as real.

Dorthy I'm not to active in AC, but when I saw your post here. I'm private paid caregiver. I would like to tell you my experience with person like your Mother.
When I started caring for my new client(F/92) 3.5 yrs ago. Her family members thought she will die because she is always complaining to family(specially her oldest daughter) about her back aches, stomach aches all over the her body!! After I start working with my client after couple of weeks later I had noticed so much meds she was taking!!! Most meds cause/make her feels sick to stomach, so I suggested to her daughter to make Dr's appointment. three of us met Dr... Dr referral to MRI, my C was nothing wrong with her!! Well currently my C is very stable for 92 for her age, plus eat healthy foods, having good BM!!... only her problem is evening anxiety so she took smallest amount of Xanax....I'm guessing her dementia is starting a little worth then that when I started working with her 4 full days a week as live-in.
I don't know what kind of medications your mother is taking... just needs little adjustment from by her PCP, Sorry my English writing is not great...hope you would understand my writing. Please take care your self first so you can give best care for your parents!! Good Luck to you....

And if you haven't already, find yourself a therapist.

Sadly it sounds as though they are complicit and co-dependant on each other as this has been going on so long.
Agree with the other very sensible advice given here, you don't need to be a part of this.
This might be a little shocking, but would you involve yourself in the more intimate parts of your parents marriage? try to see this behaviour as a private part of Their relationship and it might help you to give yourself permission to back out of your current involvement.
Good luck, and having backed off, give yourself a break if you temporarily fall back into old patterns.

D, are you an only child?