Mother (87) is constantly wanting hundreds of dollars in cash. She went to bank and took out $400 and can’t remember where it went. Advice?

You stated:
"She is mentally incompetent and that is why I handle all financial and medical issues. I’m on this site looking for advice and support, not ridicule."

I would recommend seeking legal assistance for how to protect her assets, but the plan should be to set up a trust for any assets above and beyond normal expenses needed, and a way to protect her home from anyone, including your brother. Any regular income should be set up in such a way that she can only access a minimal amount. You should be able to get a free initial consult, but if you already have access to the atty who set up the POA, I would suggest starting there.

Given her age, one source of income is SS. THAT can be handled easily (may take a little effort with the virus situation) by signing up as rep payee. It requires a special account set up that only YOU can access - no one, including your mother, can access the funds there. Call the local SS office, not the main 800 number, unless you like waiting on hold. I was able to switch where her deposits went without doing this, but was NOT able to change her address for her once we moved her to MC, so at that point I had to sign up. Technically (others will dispute, but the paperwork is CLEAR) handling ANYONE ELSE'S SS is NOT legal unless you become rep payee. POA has NO bearing for anything federal. Been there/done that. It's the safest way to protect that income from the person and from anyone else. Keep good records for what is spent and saved from those funds, as they require a yearly report (the report isn't that bad, so long as you can reconcile the funds and can be done online.)

If she has other sources of income, such as a pension, determine how much would be needed for regular expenses and move the rest into the trust asap after it comes in. Leave only the amount you think she might "need". Our mother has a federal pension, and though they could have required a special account, like SS, they didn't and so far have not asked for reports, although they can. In mom's case, I was able to continue using her regular account for these funds/payments, and thankfully there was no evil person to worry about, plus she not only couldn't drive anymore, she wouldn't be able to direct anyone to the place! I did have to "sweep" her place for all paperwork after taking over.

For the credit card - this was one area I had some difficulty. They would only allow me phone access, no online account and wouldn't even set up alerts, to make it easier to monitor usage. The one thing they did do, when I asked, was reduce her limit to a reasonable amount (hers was WAY too high and ripe for abuse if compromised!) Although it isn't recommended, I would probably set up an online account BEFORE contacting them to make any changes (you'll have to provide a copy of the POA.) FWIW we NEVER had mom "declared" incompetent and NO ONE ever questioned the changes I made.

You also said:
"Mom doesn’t drive anymore. My brother brought her to bank."

This is why some other arrangements need to be made for her. Keeping a small savings account, preferably with NO overdraft protection, for her use is about it. Limit how much goes in and that's it! If the bank will allow you to set up a separate checking account, in your name and hers, do that. It will require mom's signature, probably in person, so one of the times you take her out for whatever, get that done. Otherwise, seek legal advice for how you can set it all up such that she can't touch anything but the small allowance. Mention the probably elder abuse.

Other issues:

I would be concerned about her welfare, esp if you succeed in harnessing her funds, cutting your brother off. I would discuss this with the atty as well.  

The financial drain will need to stop, in the event that she ever needs Medicaid. If no one can produce documentation as to where those funds went, they will penalize her (requires self-payment until the total "missing" over the previous 5 years are spent.)

Please try to ignore people who assume - we know what that leads to! Skimming through the responses, it is clear that these few people are reading more into this situation than they should, aka, assuming. If in doubt, they should either ask or not bother posting. Exceeding characters for my post, so this is being posted separately.

(these are the least offensive really - there are some doozies who post here. You just need to ignore those.)

My Grandfather use to do this. He suffers from Alzheimer's. I had to become Power of Attorney over his finances to keep him from losing his rent, groceries and bill money. He didn't like me having access to his money and account but I had to do what was best for him.
He use to say, "you treat me like a child" but I had to realize he would eventually get over it.
I just give him a small amount(which he still ends up losing) but with that he still feels a sense of independence.

As my 88 year old Mom began declining cognitively, she became fixated on sending $300/month to my bum brother. As her PoA, but reluctant to have her declared unfit, I consulted an Elder Care Specialist attorney. If there is any chance that her funds will run out, Medicaid does a 5-year "look back" at money that has been "gifted" and will delay granting benefits in some cases. That will certainly put both of you in a bad position. It may not help, but it's a very real possibility if she outlives her savings.

My In-Laws had similar issues with Dad giving $ and buying cars for eldest daughter. Dad lived at home on the family farm with his two youngest daughters and they ran the farm with one brother. They ended up creating an LLC and then set it up so the bank required 2 signatures for any transactions. Dad was given a weekly “salary” and he could do with what he wanted. If you are taking care of all Mom’s finances & shopping she shouldn’t be needing much.  Give her an envelope each week with what you & she decide she needs (I’d keep it under $100.00). Let her know when it is gone there will be no more until the next “payday”.

Imho, this may be Depression era mentality and yes, I see that she is an Alzheimer's patient. Oftentimes the elder will want the money with them for fear of not ever getting it back. However, most financial institutions have a daily limit on the amount of monies withdrawn. Make sure that this is set up. If she isn't going anywhere, she no doubt doesn't need that much cash on hand, lest the "bum of a brother" gets his hands on it.

Depending on where you live, she could've spent it at the grocery stores in 2-3 weeks. I live in So. California; and cost of living, as most of us know, is very high here. My mom stopped driving about 4 years ago, and within a year lost interest in even going shopping (me driving). So, I shop for her groceries and cleaning needs (using her list), and every few weeks I withdraw $300 in cash each month so she can pay her housekeepers, gardener, and the mow-and-blow guys (as she has done for 20+ years). I can vouch how quickly $300 will vanish in 2-3 weeks where I live. Hopefully, she's not giving it to your 'bum bro'; but that's very likely. I'd just watch mom's checking account activity carefully--I set up on-line access, so I can do it daily. Luckily, her other 2 kids don't need or want her $$. Good Luck, Dragonfly 62 : ) Hugs and hearts

Hello,

Is your mother competent or does she have Alzheimer/Dementia?

I ask this bc if she’s competent and not declared medically/legally incompetent then she can spend money on anything she wants including your brother (even tho you feel it’s wrong).

It depends on you POA, to my understanding a general POA ends with incompetence, unless it’s a Durable Power of Attorney then it continues to be valid and you can control the financial situation.

Good luck.

Hi. I understand your frustration. Do you have unlimited POA over everything, or limited? (i.e. just medical POA or just financial POA?) Unlimited gives you authority to do as you see fit for her well being in all aspects. If you think she is giving it to your brother, your brother needs to understand that you are responsible for how her assets are handled, and that her money must be used for her expenses only.
I agree in opening a seperate account. If she is on any kind of government benefits, I would look into opening a trust, with you as trustee. There are different kinds of trusts, and you can contact or look up your local elder law attorney. If you go thru the bar association in your county, the 1st hour is free of charge. You can get a lot of info in an hour and it can be conducted over the phone. Make sure you ask for an elder law attorney with experience in trusts. I have a money market mutual fund, which is similar to a savings account. You can transfer funds via check into her account. There are many ways this can be handled. Leaving her with enough for her to feel independant, and telling your brother that she will have to go thru you if she wants to gift him money bc your are legally responsible for the distribution of her money hopefully will nip that in the bud. I don't know your brother, or the situation, but I have seen "trusted" family members wipe out an elderly persons estate with constant "emergencies". So, secure her money the best you can, while leaving her enough to have some freedom. I wish you the best.

Open another account as a POA of your mother and transfer all monies except $50.00 into new account. Leave the old account so she still feels independent. If she tries to take out more than the $50 she won't be able to. Speak with bank that if she takes out the whole $50, so her account won't close. Set up online access so to both accounts, so you can see if/when she takes money out and keep track of balances. If she asks about where her monies went to tell her they were used to pay bills. Just make sure you are using the money for her care, taking care of her resident inside and outside and keep all receipts. Send copies with POA to Social Security, pension, etc., with a voided check and deposit slip of new account so they will be automatically change bank account information. You may have to contact them first to make sure you have their correct address and information to have this changed. Just don't tell her about the new account, because she then will start taking monies out from that account. Just by some chance she does asks the bank about her account and a teller just happens to give her the new bank account information, an alert needs to be added to new account. She shouldn't be able to take any money out since she has not signed the signature card, but you never know mistakes happen. Since you stated she is not mentally capable of handling anything, then get her to a doctor and asked for a neurologist diagnosis to see if she has Alzheimer's or the start of it. If uncomfortable talking about things she does or has done in front of her write the doctor a letter before appointment and make sure you go in the exam room with your mother. My mother was so good at masking her condition that her doctor believed her, until I wrote her a letter with a list things my mother had done and did currently and went in with her appt and her doctor then made an appointment with neurologist and it was found my mother was in entering mid stage of Alzheimer's. Have the doctor write a letter that your mother can not drive, live alone if that is the case, handle financial matters, etc., and furnish a copy to bank and Social Security and pension, etc. Make sure in letter to these companies that you enclose your POA and contact information along with a copy of letter from neurologist. If you are not comfortable in doing any of these things, I would strongly suggest you see an Elder Attorney. I wish you the very best, I know it can be extremely frustrating.

This can get very tricky. The POA was designed in case a person can’t, for some reason, take care of business and they let someone handle it for them IF they can’t such as being out of town or in the hospital, etc so the designated POA can pay their bills, make purchases, etc. I was POA for both of my parents. But, I think there is a limit to how much power a POA has. Sometimes you actually have to have guardianship. IF the parent wants to give a sibling money, you can’t do a thing about it unless that person has been deemed mentally incapable of handling their own affairs or making rational decisions. My advise, for what it is worth, is to go see an elder law attorney and just get a good, solid answer that is LEGAL. It will serve you well. Well worth the one hour consultation too. I went to one and saved myself a ton of grief. I came away armed with knowledge of what rights I had to help my parents. My mother had dementia but Dad did not but he had health issues and depended on me. Please ask an attorney. I was charged $250.00 for one hour. Well worth every penny!!

Dragon,
Also, I wonder if the bank will post an alert on her account if she takes out more than a certain amount, it won't deny her the money, but can let you, the POA, know if a problem is developing!!!!! You have a tricky situation, best of luck.

Call the bank, limit her withdrawals, if she has been diagnosed with dementia provide them the documentation and move her money to different account. Leave some money in there for her if u need to but I would work with bank for best way to protect her.
You need to change the main income and savings so someone does not take advantage of her.
When she goes to sleep try to figure out where she put the money she has, take it out and when she asks for more, give that back to her but I must stop her from going to be able to get money as it is likely someone is putting her up to it

Odd that brother didn't have gas in the car. Wonder what the $400 was used for. I can advise that you don't need legal determination to invoke the POA. Just having a medical diagnosis - actually we didn't need that, but we do have it. My Dad gave POA long before he became incapable, but he could see it coming shall we say, and my brother helped him immensely by taking control of the finances. My Dad gave the permission when he was lucid and that was enough. I would suggest that if there is enough money, a stipend of a couple hundred dollars a month in exchange for SOMETHING he might do for your mother, would relieve your Mom of the feeling that she needs to "help" him.

First of all, you as the Power of Attorney must immediately go to the bank and somehow get her name OFF the accounts or work something out so they will NOT give her the money. There are methods to do this but I don't recall the details any longer. Perhaps an account with YOUR signature and hers - in other words TWO SIGNATURES are required. Perhaps close out her accounts with her name on them (yes, you can do this) and make a new account with YOU as the only signer. I recall those days from years ago when I helped someone. It was a mess but I found a way to stop it. Do NOT allow her to do this especially for someone who has not and won't work. It will come back to bite her and you too if nothing is done at once.

My mother gave loads to environmental "charities" until my sister took away Mom's purse, all forms of ID, and her check book. Get her to sign the POA form and take away her bank card and tell the bank she may not access the account ever again. There is a good chance you mother was scammed.

Go to bank and tell them your suspicions. They can give you a debit card for accessing her account for money she might need. And make her card invalid. Although if she is mentally competent, there's probably really not much you can do. Consult the bank. Btw...how is she getting herself to the bank at that age??

My mother is in assisted living in Virginia and I have a durable power of attorney that I can exercise to do just about anything to protect her assets, including opening and closing banking accounts. In reading the responses to your request for advice, I did not see any advice on why it is so important to know where your mother's money is going. If she runs out money, needs to apply for Medicaid assistance, there is a 5 year look back at where her money was spent. Money she gives to anyone may prevent or delay Medicaid assistance. My advice would be to consult an elder attorney in your mother's state. If your mother is competent, then she should go with you so an expert can advise her on why it is necessary to protect her future. Your brother should go as well.

Another issue is that as power of attorney, one is responsible for documentation of any of your mother's money spent on her behalf. This is imperative if your mother ends up with no money and needs to have state assistance for her care.

I think there was plenty of good information in some other answers. The only thing I'd add is that I'd confirm with the brother that the money in fact went to him, to assure that some other person is not taking advantage of your mother. My ex-wife's father lost perspective and was giving out absurdly high tips. Even if you and your brother don't see eye to eye on most things, you probably share an interest in assuring that someone else is not taking advantage of your mom, and should try to cooperate enough to confirm this.

If your mother is of sound mind, and you are her durable POA, then no you can't do anything to stop her, and if your bum of a brother who hasn't worked in 10 years is taking care of her in her home, then he deserves some payment to live on, don't you think? Why are you worried about how much money she takes out of her account? If she is of the mind that she could die soon, well, she can't spend her money in Heaven, you can't take it with you, remember? In today's world you don't have to go anywhere to spend money, you can order on the phone, or rent movies without leaving the house, and if she accesses the internet, she could be playing games and they cost money if you want to play without waiting for more lives or gems, or whatever the game gives you to play without restrictions. Also, there is a price for food getting delivered, does she cook all the meals, what does she do when she's at home. If your brother keeps her company and makes sure she's safe and cared for, I don't mean to take sides, but I was my mother's sole care giver, and my whole family spoke ill of me and wanted to put my mother in a home, even though we both paid all the bills, taxes, and she never asked any of her other children for a dime. She loved her home, and I was told by her that no matter what, I was to stay in that home and that would keep them from putting her into a home. But for the last 3 years of her life, dying at 83, she started to really not be able to get out of her chair and I had to do everything for her, except spoon feed her. I don't know the full situation with your brother, or if you are also her sole care giver. If she is fully functional, or does need daily help with her care. If you only pick her up a few times a week or once a week to shop or go to where ever. and the bum is caring for your mother, that is not only a God Send for your mother, you, and if you have siblings, are spared the sacrifices of giving up your life and freedom. He's helping you to live normal and unstressed. If you want to prove to him that it's easy, try doing it for one week solid. If it's a breeze and you can tell she doesn't need anyone to help her, then I guess he's just a bum. Just walk for one week in your brother's shoes before you pass judgement on him. I'm just saying this because family should stick together, and mine fell apart, I will never be the same, and I will never forgive them for what they put us through and they never offered to walk even an hour in my shoes. Care giving by a family member is 24/7 and except when you pick her up to go for a drive, your brother is working, just not for a paycheck, but he's working one of the most emotional, hardest and important jobs a person can work.

As long as she is of sound mind, she should be able to give her money to any bum (including your brother) that she chooses.

If she is not of sound mind, see a lawyer and have her declared incompetent.

My father also felt the need to have money. He always was given some, it was always about ten ones a couple of fives and a ten. This let him have money when he felt like he needed to buy something, but wasn’t enough to cause problems on his expenses or someone taking advantage of him.

I have conservatorship and I go through this with my dad every month. Always says he has no cash. Doesn't know where it went. He pays for certain things from his personal checking account (with help writing the checks from me -- we allowed him to keep an account so he would still feel like he is involved but he can't write a check anymore). He pays cash for personal needs at the AL with the help of caregivers to take him out but does not need $500 a month. He has had trouble with hoarding money in the past but won't let me see what he has and it is a MAJOR meltdown if I don't give him some. For now, I do except that during Covid when I can't see him, I don't. I finally brought a few hundred by last week because he insisted he needed to get his friend to work in his yard at his house (he still owns a house). I bet there is money still there but I will never know. He will probably ask for more next month but he won't get it if he hasn't been able to get out of the AL yet for errands. I think he is probably hoarding money again.

In spite of all that, try to have a nice day.

If the “bum of a brother” is living with her, is he also the caretaker ? He deserves something for that. But if you are carrying the load, you deserve something too. One person can’t do it all, and mothers of certain generations regard their sons as idols & their daughters as their servants. I lived thru this. Take on as much as is fair to you, and hire for the rest. Stand your ground! Your life has to come first - or you’re no good to anyone! Best of lucky & much empathy!

Yes! They sell money guns on Amazon (I gather for strippers) but the “test” money they send is a stack of the most realistic $100 Bills I have ever seen.

I had my Dad for 7 years and now have built a small community of Licensed Family Care Homes for seniors with dementia.

Now each of my 18 residents has several hundred dollars in their wallet or purse. They all feel very wealthy.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/your-account/order-history/ref=ppx_yo_mob_b_search?opt=ab&search=Gun

I agree with other posts here, but please note that there are different types of PoA. Financial PoA allows you to handle her finances, and healthcare allows you to handle medical matters. It has to say that specifically in black and white or the bank may not permit you to make changes to her bank account.

Before you invoke your PoA, pls be sure she is officially diagnosed by a physician to be incompetent of handling her affairs alone. When that is done, everything else is easier to accomplish.

A few questions for you, Dragonfly:
- Is your mother competent? If she's competent she can do what she wants. However, nothing says you have to help her get to the bank for her money.

- You have her POA, but is it invoked? In other words are you legally allowed to act on her behalf? What I mean is, my neighbor has my POA, but it's not valid for her to act on my behalf unless I'm declared mentally incompetent by my doc. If you feel she is incompetent, check the wording on the POA to see what actions to take to have her declared incompetent.

For my mom I (along with my mom to sign to open the account since it was in her name with me as a signatory) I opened a checking account. With her dementia she immediately forgot all about this account. I moved her SS and her pension to this account and set up all utilities to be auto-paid.

I kept her original savings account as that's what she'd had for decades. She was proud she had her savings passbook. I kept about $200 in there for her to be driven by me or my sister. She would take out about $100, pay for lunch and gas. It made her feel in charge to be able to do that.

About your brother, check your state's laws for vulnerable persons either online or by calling Elder Services agencies in your state or county. If your mother falls under those laws, she might be in a protected class from people who would taken advantage of because of their affliction. (I became Mom's POA after we learned my niece took advantage of Mom's dementia by telling sob stories how she was broke, later admitting she did it because Mom couldn't remember it. She ended up draining all of Mom's money. Kansas, where Mom lived, had such a protective law. I warned my niece if she tried that again, I WOULD call the police and file charges.)

If your mother is incompetent and you can invoke the POA, you can make changes to your mother's financial accounts to protect her finances that can/will be used for her benefit. And you can warn your brother that your mother is protected from financial abuse.

Goo luck, Dragonfly. I remember how I felt when I learned of Mom's financial situation. Good for you for looking out for her.

Use your POA to make some very necessary changes, change banks, change any information, and do not allow your mother to go to the bank if possible. Your brother is obviously her favorite and all of her money will not take the hurt and unfairness away. Trust me on this, I have experienced this in my lifetime. I was my mother’ best friend until she started taking advantage of my kindness while my brother got praises for just being her son. She took advantage of me and my husband during her life even though she showed no respect for our feelings. I knew long beforehand that my brother would be POA and I knew what to expect. I got nothing because my mother was Italian and my brother God! Simple as that. I distanced myself from my mother once she got cancer, both emotionally and physically, as advised by her visiting nurse because she saw how distressed I was getting trying to help and letting my health go in the attempt. Her money would never equal the advice that nurse gave and if I could remember her name I would put her up for sainthood. Money is nothing compared to my health and peace of mind!!!! In the final chapter, her money was worth zero.

Dragonfly, I agree in principle that it's her money and (if she's mentally competent) can spend it as she likes BUT the money/caregiving trainwreck will eventually land on your doorstep so in some regards it IS your business that her money isn't wasted on her nere-do-well moocher adult son. At some point he may convince her to sign over financial PoA to him, as often happens.

I think you have to decide how much effort you want to put into trying to protect her money now so she isn't left destitute by a financial abuser who will disappear when the coffers are empty. Or, you can come to peace with it and agree that it is her money and she can squander it and she will then go on Medicaid and there'll be no funds for better care, Or you can resign your PoA and still love your mother but not care about her becoming destitute and your brother (or the county) managing her care until she passes. In my own actual experience I couldn't live with options 2 and 3 so I opted for 1. Shell38314 gave you good advice to move forward in that direction. I would take further steps to lock down and protect all her sensitive financial info and assets (checkbooks, credit/debit cards, sign up for credit alerts, have her mail go to a PO box, etc). You won't regret doing it.

Does she have any inklings of cognitive decline? If I were you I'd get her in for a cognitive exam. This way, if she does have the beginnings you know how best to deal with her and her needs. Also, having an official diagnosis of dementia in her medical records will protect your PoA status from being changed by your brother since PoA can only be assigned by someone with a clear mind. I wish you all the best -- let us know how it goes!