I was not notified that my dad took me off as Power Of Attorney. Should I have been notified in writing?

As soon as mom said she wanted to leave the ALF and insisted she could live on her own, we started the Guardianship process. You have to protect them from themselves.

Legally a person does not have to be notifed that they are no longer a POA. Morally, it would be the right thing to do. Being a POA is not an honor. It can leave you physically and emotionally drained. I know, I went from my mother's DPOA/Healthcare Proxy to Administrator of her estate. So much responsibility in just two months time and not knowing how much longer it will take to close her estate. If I knew then, what I know now, I would have never agreed to be delegated with all that responsiblity.

Ooo dear, I wish I wasn't! Good luck, let us know how you're getting on?

Thanks Countrymouse for your in-put. You are correct on all accounts in your above post! Cheryl

One other thought: it's possible his revocation of the POA was invalid - he would need to have legal capacity to revoke it, as well as to make a new one. Might be worth investigating.

Wow.

Wow. I have to say - this has nothing to do with the question, but - your Dad is AMAZING. Poor old boy had a nasty fall - did he trip over his slippers? Nope - roller skating. Wow!

His discovery of the merry-go-round of spending money: also amazing but not in a good way. You'd better get all your documents together and head off to the Elder Care Lawyer, hadn't you? - ideally taking a social worker with you, if that can possibly be arranged.

The thing is, there's financial naïveté, and then there's the way your Dad is behaving, which actually - do forgive me if I'm out of order - hints at… could there be some kind of disability there? Like you get in the autistic spectrum, where there's no concept of money? Which would be one explanation of why your mother kept a tight grip on the family finances, and a better explanation than her being a control freak who kept her husband under her thumb? The fact that it's been, essentially, a lifelong issue for them would suggest this has nothing to do with typical older age incapacity; but that doesn't mean he can't be considered incompetent for other reasons, which might give you something to go on in terms of protecting your parents' best interests.

If I were you, I'd call APS and then call the Elder Care attorneys. Don't let them fob you off, either, because this is stunningly atypical and they ought to get involved. Make them concentrate on the full story, don't let them interrupt you and say "your Dad is a grown up, he can please himself" - like I did back there. If you know of a diagnosis or assessment from the past, have a look at that, too. Go back to your mother's bank, lawyer, anyone you can think of and try to find out how she managed things. You have to act to protect your mother: your father's neglect of her best interests and welfare should also work to your advantage.

Wow. Gird your loins. Good luck! And (forgive me, I know I don't have to cope with him) I am SO impressed with your brilliant nightmare Dad. Big hug.

Hi Countrymouse, thanks for the above response. My parents are both 89 and about to turn 90 this coming year. My Mother is about 7 monthes older than Dad.
They have been incapacited since July 2012. Dad broken palvis in three place. How?? from roller skating. (Don't ask) Mom spetis in Dec. 2012 because she is a pre-diabetic and she decided that she was not going to change her needle in her testing kit. They brought her back to life but when she came to she did not know what a door knob did or what to do with her dentures or a tooth brush. Does not know how to use stove or mico-wave anymore. So they go out to eat all the time.
Than also in 2012 they found out that Mom had kidney cancer. All the doctor wanted to do was take out her kidney at the age of 88. Well forget that. Mom lived with us for 7 monthes until June 2013...June 24th, 2013 Mom broke her hip and went into the hospital the same day that Dad went into the hospital with pneumonia. (I mean the same day) Him in ICU and her getting a new hip. Dad had DNR on him but they brought him back with drugs also. Neither one remember being in the hosptial for those visits. Making a long story short.
Mom and Dad both on Medicare. Mom has medigap insurance since she was in her 60's but Dad refused to get it....So Mom's Medical bills paid but in full and Dad owned 20% of his. What I am trying to say is that I have been active on POA for almost 2 year. Mom always make out the bills for 65 years of their marriage so Dad never had to balance a checkbook or write a check. Now Mom with dementia can not do it either. Dad started to write out checks from canceled checkbooks that were closed more than 10 years ago. Of cause all checks balanced. You get the idea. Mom's medigap insurance he almost let lapse so I had it scaned out of the checkbook so all he had to do was subtract it. (went right to insurance company) well he did not understand this even thou he was saving 2 dollars exta a month plus money on stamps. He tried to change it so he would have to write out checks again but they would not let him. He will not talk to me now and that is when he went to the bank and took my name off of POA. Afraid that they are going to lose their house because he will not pay the taxes. He also does not want to pay the 20% that he owes for his pnumonia bill. Going to stop here because need to sleep.
To answer your question he wants to be in control but think that I am going to have two homeless 90 year olds on my hands. They will not consider AL.
Thanks for your response. Signed Frustrated and Depressed. Cheryl

Your DPOA doesn't need to be used until your parent has lost capacity. Once your parent has lost capacity, he cannot withdraw your DPOA. So my question is, since you can't have been using the DPOA, what practical difference does it make whether you're informed of that decision or not?

On the other hand, it's pointless and stupid not to inform a person that he or she is no longer required to act as POA so why on earth would anyone do that? It can only cause inconvenience and ill-feeling among all concerned. Sorry, Cher - no idea what he was trying to achieve!

Hi Cher,
I answered on your wall but will post here as well. I wish I could do more. Maybe some others can fill in if there's something I left out:

Cher, I'm so sorry. This has to hurt horribly.

I'm afraid that the only thing you can do is talk with an attorney, preferably one who specializes in elder law. You could try talking to the attorney who did your dad's paperwork - he or she should have known that he wasn't competent to do this, but you may not get anywhere (client confidentiality). Then, you'd need someone else.

The main thing is that your dad really has shot himself in the foot but your mother is affected too. It takes a long time to go to court and prove them incompetent - money, as well. You may have to let them stumble along until they are in enough trouble for Social Services to step in.

Whatever you do or don't do, do not feel guilty. You've done so much and it may be all you can do for now.

Please keep us posted,
Carol

Know this is an old post but "Do you have to get notice if the DPOA is taken away?" I live in New Jersey and my Dad did this to me this month: June 2014. Read the 11 post and never really found the answer. Maybe I missed it. Is it different in different states?

Yes everything is different in each state But the rule does apply in most states that a Lein can be placed on a house if there is no other person's name on the title. The lawyers gave that advice to my mom many years before she got sick, with altizmers'/dementia back in 1990. They tried there best to explain even though you have your daughter down as durable power of attorney, legal rep, health expoxy, and being the only person listed on her will, ( besides my hubby and children if I was to dye first. The house could be taken over to use as a lein until she dies or all medical cost were paid. She would not believe them and I went with my mom's wishes. It use to be 2 years in New York in 2005 they went back on assets then it became five and in most states it is now seven. If you go into a military nursing home they go back ten years looking at statement and the flow of money. I know that since I just went through this with my uncle in April 2011. I placed a $20,000.00 deposit back in 2005 when she was placed into the nursing home and made payments.. But the nursing home placed the lein on the house thinking mom was going to be there another year or more. No no one was told, not even the lawyers or real estateuntil the day of the closing in March 2007 we found out . Since my mom was unable to make decesion or think for herself that is when the Durable power of attorney comes into effect. If you do not have that you our out of luck They lawyers did try to work around the system but could not. If she had any life insurance polices they also could have been seized. But since I was the one who found them back in 2005 and was the only person listed I was able to use them for the pre paid funeral expense. I was only trying to get my point accross they people need to wake up and get there final plans done in case of emergency. You do want someone there to watch over what is going on even when you are in a hospital and speak up on your behalf. You are not reading this correctly. My own dad died back in 1974 mom was alone for years. Lucky she had myself and family who lived nearby and visit regular and then since she had a two family home she had my grandma and uncle move in into the upstairs apartment. The house was paid off in full in 1980. I had no problem when I went to have her will done by probate in Florida. No money was given to myself. I did get the deposit money back a year latter in 2008 after I brough her to Florida with me. Another thing for your info I myself did not get one cent of my money. And after the hospital was paid in full over $300,000.00 they tried to place many claims through medicare of which I found out and reported them. When was in Florida the same thing happen after a fall hshe had, a rehab place tried five times to get money from medicare after they were paid. That is why it is so important to have a person in charge if you are unable to take care of yourself. It has to be done before the fact. If my mom would only have listen to the lawyers back in 1990 I would not have had any problem, Both my mom and myself had no problems, I took care her until she died in my own arms in the beatuful assisting living home in Nov 2009, of which she was placed after I could not do it any more. I had no problem taking care of my own mom she only had a problem with my brother who abused her. I am sorry if I came accross hard but I am trying to let people know what can happen.

Pat61 - thanks so much. It's interesting to see how each state approaches all this.

The reason I asked about probate is that MERP (Medicaid Estate Reinbursement or Repayment or Recoup Program - the name varies by the state) does this through probate in most states. My mom is now on Medicaid (in TX) and upon her death MERP will file their claim in probate court. I've been executrix twice before but this was before MERP was in force, so those probates were different.

So for your mom, if I got this correct, she owed the "state" 80K (or was it $800K??) for what the state reinbursed the NH for. The 80K was whatever was the difference in what her personal resources paid (like her SS checks, annuity, whatever you all paid privately) and what the billed costs ($ 80K) - were. (Yes I know these are just so overinflated, it makes you want to scream but that's another topic...). So a lien was placed on her only tangible asset - her home. The house was owned by her free & clear and in her name only and was probably appraised at over $ 300,000K. Or was is much higher, 500K...700K?

She was admitted to the NH after 2005 or 2006, right?? - before that MERP was not required by the feds for the states to do.

Is this pretty accurate?

If you don't mind me asking, was the lien placed by the State of NY; the State of NY and the specific NH or just the NH? Or was it done by a law firm? The firm would be a contractor hired by the state to do recoup - the papers might not read that they are a state contractor. How did you find out there was a lein? Were you able to negotiate the amount "owed"?

I'm trying to figure out how states are doing MERP, what is the $ amount triggers MERP to act and the timeframe that things are done and if they negotiate. Each state does this differently. Like in TX if the house is over 500K in value, they can't go on Medicaid - the house HAS to be sold to qualify or be appraised at under 500K; while in other states $ 750K is the maximum value for the home other states have no ceiling on the home's value. In TX, MERP sends out a letter within 10 days of getting a letter from the state vital data registry to whomever is listed as the responsible party on the NH resident info sheet that MERP recoup will happen against the deceased estate. Then you have 30 - 45 days to respond with a list of whatever expenses you have spent on the deceased home with receipts. Then MERP decides whether to persue the recoup claim. It seems that if it's under 100K in recoup, no MERP.

MERP is pretty, new maybe 5 years for most states. It seems that it's only recently that states have been going after recoup. I don't know if this is due to states not having as much revenue OR states have outsourced doing this so law firms are now doing this aggressively OR just what. I'm just trying to figure this out.

Appreciate any more insight and details you can give on this. Thanks.

Dear igloo572 . No the will was not contested mom was alive. Some people do not understand just because you have a durable power of attorney/all types of legal papers. if the house only has the one name on it meaning my mom. When she was placed in a assisting living, the durable power of attorney did help me out but she refused for years, thinking I would get the house and she would never get sick. The state of New York nursing home she was in placed a $80,000.00 lein on her home. The bill was $10,000.00 a month plus more. They never told me about the veterans, but they can't help since she own property in only her name. The homes in Forest Hills New York are worth a lot of money. The lawyers /realestate and hospitals got most of the money For your info probate is done when a person is dead. No there was nothing wrong with anything. People please wake up for you families sake, I will helps it is very important, durable power of attorney is the best, legal rep helps. But is the house or property title is still in the person who can not make any decesion. A lein can be place. ( NO money was owed, ) only the bill for the nursing mom that was partley paid from month to month. They did it , it happens in many states. Even bank accounts that ITF on them, if there is no will it goes to propate.

The one thing I noticed is that you said you "moved" Dad from Arizona to Calif. Did he go willing or kicking and screaming? Was he aware of what was happening? I would assume there was packing, etc of his belongings. If he feels that he can and was living independently, why was there a POA in the first place? You must have seen something to make you feel that some help was needed and he signed the original one. And now he is threatening to call the police? Doesn't sound to me that all of Dad's cylinders are firing correctly. Is it possible to get him evaluated for some mental status changes? You may have to have an attorney intervene especially if there is an inheritance to be concerned with. An ex-girlfriend? Sounds like she may be after something. I wish you luck with this....sounds like a tough one to get through.

Pat61 - if you don't mind me asking but how was the house a problem?

Was it that you had to go to probate to get it transferred from her name? Did she die without a will or was the will contested? Did the property have issues of clear title left over.....like from when she owned it with your dad and he preceeded her in death? Did the house have a lein on it? I'm just curious.....thanks.

In this day and age there are so many parents of baby boomers, who will not listen about What if something happens and I can't take care of myself. They are affaird someone is going to take something away from them. But when they get sick even a child or love one can not do everything to stop things from happening in life. I was proud of my mom that she did make me her power of attorney and all the other legal papers were done correctly. I followed her wishes to the end. I was able to help her out when she could not take care of herself anymore. make sure even with medicare and and bills that came in there was no over billing for doctors or medical cost. Only thing she did not due was place her paid home with my name on it. It did was a problem in the end. Once a person is found to unable to take care of themselves, if there is nothing in writing it can go to the state and many problems do come up. Some older people do not understand this. They believe since they have children it all goes to the children, that is not true. I even made sure my mom had a pre paid funeral set up. Both myself and hubby have done all this after i learned alot after taking care of my own mom.

great question......im still trying to straighten a very similar situation-
long and involved, when it is a total surprise that u r removed as POA- it is like a slap in the face-no more than that- abusive- and disrespectful, mean and a disperate need to control- . it certainly doesnt show any concern about the parent involved-how is that a demonstration of what is best for your parent-frustrating and
it can destroy u-
we must take care of ourselves-try to figure what our main concerns are-
and if they are realistic--i imagine your family is like mine- and the surving ones are still
fighting old battles, hearing old tapes in our head,as we heard when we were little-
and hopefully at some point,we mature and are able to at least try to accept this is
for what it is- and that is not going to be a fair ,
there must be some way when we finially can grow into a place where all that anger
and hurt can be put in its place, and not destroy or rule the person who u are-
love and patience- cry and smash pilows- sometimes it helps, i send u millions of hugs . i know how u feel, im still trying to figure this one out- this site is the best-
these guys know from experience and are loving and gives hope,.
keep posting- love k

I ws the power of attorney for my own mom many years before she came down with alztemiers/dementia. Once a person has been tested and proven to have dementia or mental distorder, and unable to make their own decession, they can not change a will or even change a power of attorney. I do not know of the case of your dad's health. But I know that is it not easy being the power of attorney. My own mom left the gas on one day lucky I was a regular visit to check on her and was in the bathroom. The piolt light went out and she wass just siting in a fod like manner. I removed her from the house to the back yard shut the gas off, open doors and windows and then called 911. The fire resuce was there in seconds. After her vital were checked little did I know Protective services of New York was called in. After that time I demanded a test be done. She also was not paying bills, sat up late at night until four o'clock am trying to write out checks. She would hide mail. My mom was very sick.Many years back she was informed by the lawyer who did all the legal paper work she should add my name to the house. But she thought she would never get sick and a lot of our parents do not beleive if they own a house a lien can be put on it and you can not sell the house that easy.even if you are Power of attorney, legal rep, health epoxy and only one on the will. Mom was placed in a nursing home in New York after a fall however they said her condtion of health she could not be at home any more. Well I would not listen to that one and started working on getting her out which took over two years and have her move to Florida. We had to make our own home child proof and safe for her I even made a room up for a nurse if I needed one and found a day care for acivities.It took almost one year to clean the house and sell it. I bought my mom to live with me in Florida . However the hospital did not inform myself how sick she was. The Florida resuce was called in only after five days with me. I was hit. yell at and she pasassed out on me. I was able to place her in a beautilful assisting living of which I was there all the times. The same place that was set up for day care. Even did sleep overs. She was in the hospital several times in Florida due to falls, her not listening to the docotors or nurses. They become very strong. My mom died in my own arms when everything in her little body stoped working. You may have to get with a lawyer and also speak to the staff at the nursing home ( social worker), get with elder care . Each state has its own laws, But it was very hard for me with my mom in New York who was in and out of hospitals and nursing homes for rehab, plus having nurses and others to help out. I will tell you something that may hurt there is not one place that is 100% safe only if you are there to check up on them all the time. Good luck and may god watch over you. Also remember to write down everything you have done or notice.

If his medical records show he has dementia then you can have the revocation reversed. This is sticky and you will need an attorney who is in the county where he is a legal resident to do this for you. Otherwise you are SOL if he want to have a new POA.

My guess is that this is the pattern he has used with family forever - petty and vindictive. If this is the case, and you think he will take you to court, then please go to see an elder care attorney so you have someone at the ready to represent you. You need to take care of yourself first and foremost. Whatever the case, please take the time to write down a time-line of what you did and your concerns for dad (eg went to Dad's house 1/15 gas was on in kitchen; 2/1 Dad called upset that mail was being opened by neighbors; 6/10 XYZ sent letter about unpaid bill Dad refuses to pay).

You did your best. If he is competent, there's not a lot more you can do. It's very sad, but unless you are willing to go to court and have him declared incompetent, you can't do a whole lot. Maybe he'll come around in time. Heartbreaking, but not uncommon.
Take care of yourself,
Carol

I'd say "Dad, I was trying to make sure you were being taken care of, you certainly are NOT a prisoner here, so move back to Arizona if you want. I wish you well". Then please don't beat yourself up about his decision. I'm assuming he's not demented or something cause it sounds like he knows exactly what he wants and what he doesn't want. Let him go. You gave it the old college try.