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Joint POA I have this with my mum for my dad and we can't agree on him going into care. I want him to stay at home for the remainder of his life this is putting such a strain on our relationship

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Who is taking care of him? Does he have caregivers that come in? You could always hire an agency to provide home care but is cost prohibitive for many. Some are able to find private caregivers, so no agency overhead. But then dad would become an employer, deduct taxes, pay workmen's comp, social security and what not.

Who provides the care for him now?
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He stay with my mum just now who has support 5 days a week home care attend twice daily to deal with personal care and give his medication. My mum has just said She's had enough of caring for him and thinks a care home is the answer I want to increase the daily support but she doesn't want to.IF need be I can take him to stay with me and my family but moving him out of his environment will cause more confusion.
I understand that it's difficult to look after someone with dementia but it's your husband and when you take your vows you should remember in sickness part
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Margaretann, I have joint Power of Attorney with my Mom regarding Dad, and joint with Dad regarding my Mom. But on their POA's, each parent is the prime Power of Attorney.... I only come into the picture if neither of my parents are able to make a choice regarding the other.

Therefore I feel your Mum should have the final say, as long as she is still in clear mind and understands what is going on. Could be your Mum would feel overwhelmed if your Dad was to remain at home with Caregivers coming and going, or not showing up, etc. Your Mum might need to have some solitude and peace for herself, and rather visit your Dad as his "wife" instead of a "caregiver".
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Margaretann, first if your mom is the primary caregiver the choice of placing your father should be hers. If you are dead set on that happening offer to spend a month with dad while your mom take a well deserved break. I am a firm believer in asking people to put the shoe on the other foot if possible. Nothing like a healthy dose of reality to get people to understand.
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Margaretann, I just looked at your profile. There are only four posts total frome you since 2010, three of them were that year, then one in 2011. One of your posts your mom was having difficulty with your dad's agressive behavior and you asked a question about drugs your dad was taking. Your mom has been caring for your dad for at least five years.

Placement of you dad should be her choice. She is telling you her decision because you are her daughter and she loves you. She is looking for your love and support as she makes this decision. So, my only advice is to help and provide the emotional loving support that she is seeking from you. Offer to go there to look at facilities with her, or for her. She may be so exhausted that she is not able to do this herself. Ask her what YOU can do to help her!
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Your mom may not feel comfortable being the main caregiver or the fact of dad passing in the house she will continue to leave in. These 2 things probably need to be discussed. Are you or another family member able to move into moms house to be the primary caregiver. Paid help is just that. All final decisions will be moms if she is the main caregiver and perhaps she is no longer mentally able to do that. My mom had dementia and my dad was with her 3 days a week with the caregivers. My sister and I spent the nights. When it reached the point where I was getting phone calls to come over on my afternoons off, I knew it was too much for dad. That is when I moved into my parents home. Dad was much more at ease knowing there was family there to handle emergencies. It seems to me that the current dilemma is you making decisions on what mom will be doing and that is not fair to her.
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Margaretan, yes the vows do say "in sickness and in health" but it doesn't mean the person who is sick should only be cared for at home.... a person needs to do what is best for their spouse, even if it means moving them into a continuing care facility.

Please note that 40% of caregivers die while caring for their loved one. Not good odds. Now what? As Glad had mentioned above, put yourself in your Mom's shoes for a month and you be the prime caregiver... I bet you will change your mind after 2 weeks, wondering how on earth does Mom do all this.

Age needs to be taken into consideration, too. You are probably 20-30 years younger than your Mom, huge difference in one's energy level. Once we become senior age, it can take us twice as long to complete a chore than it did 20 years prior. It's called age decline.

There's a reason memory care facilities/nursing homes have 3 shifts each working 8 hours. That worker can go home, have a good night sleep and be ready refreshed for the next day. Your Mom would be working 168 hours [3 shifts] all herself. Can you see why she just can't take care of your Dad at home?
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I don't know that I agree with that 40% figure. Of all the caregivers I have known, none have died. Those types of statistics are based upon the persons who actually completed the surveys. I don't recall that being a question asked at the hospital nor on the death certificate so how can they accurately say 40%. No response necessary just my opinion.
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MargaretAnn, my parents had a similar situation. They were in the 70's, Dad had AD and could not longer drive, Mom was his caregiver. My sister and her family did all they could to help, which was a lot. Dad was in a daytime program, which gave Mom respite. But the rest of the day and all of the night, it was Mom who dealt with his needs, his anxiety, Sundowners. It was she who was up every hour and a half as he wandered the house. She developed high blood pressure, he became more agitated and fearful. Finally, she said that she felt it was time for him to have 24/7 care, as she could no longer do it. We were unable to, with young families and full time jobs.

Placing Dad was one of the most painful things, but sadly many of the choices with such illnesses are varying degrees of lousy. Even when they're the best choice for Dad. This is a terribly difficult thing for her to decide to do and she's probably given it much thought and prayer. Maybe she's experiencing some health symptoms from the stress that she's kept quite about - chest tightness, breathing problems, head aches and she's certainly sleep deprived. And while we adoring daughters hate to admit it, dads with AD can become nasty, violent, hurtful.

She's not abandoning her vows of marriage - she's taking care of them both as best as she can.
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Margaret, you have been given sound advice. You can't in any fairness ask Mum to keep caring for Dad beyond her capabilities, in order to keep you comfortable and secure knowing he is at home and not in a facility where you and she will both need to be involve with and play watchdog over his care instead. I think all of us had the ideal that people could always live in their own homes no matter what, but sometimes reality intrudes and it really is not always possible. It may be a blessing when it is, but you just have to accept it cannot always be done.
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Many thanks for all your comments this is a difficult time for me and my mum
I haven't asked any questions on here for a long time because we had everything under control and my dad was doing good
POA is definitely joint as my dad changed his first POA from only my mum to include me to have the same rights equally I don't know why he did this as he visited the lawyer in his own to do it
I understand Iny mum could be exhausted but me staying with my dad for a month wouldn't be any good as I have just did this to facilitate my mum going on holiday for a month . I either need to have him permanent or he needs to go to permanent care.
This will happen pretty quickly as my mum is heading to Australia for 6 weeks to visit my brother who doesn't take anything to do with the care or decisions for my dad so need to make a decision prompt
If he goes into care I will need to be watchdog over the place he goes to as there won't be anyone else here
Sorry for such a rant I'm struggling he asked me never to let him go into care and he was such a good dad to me looking after me protecting me I'm just feeling guilty to be put in this position maybe if the decision had not been mine to make I would have taken this better
PS I am a social worker and give out all the advice you guys have wrote above but when it comes to taking my own advice I find it heartbreaking

Thanks for listening I'm sure I will do the right thing just love my dad do much xx
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"When it comes to taking my own advice I find it heartbreaking." Oh, absolutely! Heartbreaking is the most accurate way to describe dementia. If that is how you feel you are perfectly normal.

Even if you were the one and only POA you cannot insist that your mother continues to be the primary care-giver for Dad. That is her decision. You and she may have equal authority in making decisions for Dad, but you have no authority to make decisions about her life. I think you might as well accept her decision and support her in making it work out as well as it can for all of you.

But outside of the "authority" issue, I hope that in your own heartbreak you can feel compassion for your mother, too. Perhaps you were closer to your father. Maybe you didn't have a fully satisfying relationship with Mom. I don't know. But she is your mother, she has had/has major heartbreak of her own over Dad's illness, and she needs all the support she can get. Accusing her of not taking her marriage vows seriously is not exactly supportive.

It is the dementia that is heartbreaking. Not the fact that you have to make decisions. Not the fact that you and your mother disagree. The disease itself is the enemy here. Keep that in mind.
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I recommend this Aging Care article to you: https://www.agingcare.com/articles/I-promised-my-parents-I-d-never-put-them-in-a-nursing-home-133904.htm

Many people have promised a loved parent that they'll never put him or her in a nursing home, so what to do when the parent can't live alone (or their spouse can no longer care for them) is an issue many people face. This article is a compassionate look at that issue.
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Jeanne made a very good recommendation of article for you to read. So many struggle with making the decision that the time has come. Many ask "How do I know if now is the time to move?" There are many answers to that question. Some of them are:
1) When the caregiver begins questioning whether the care they are providing is sufficient
2) When the caregiver's own health begins to suffer
3) When family dynamics are such that there is discord that causes all additional stress
4) When the cost of home care becomes more expensive than a facility would be
5) When the person with dementia becomes aggressive causing a danger to himself
6) When preventing wandering becomes part of a regular caregiving routine
7) When they become a danger to themselves or others
8) When the home is no longer safe for them to negotiate
9) When the caregiver does not want to provide the care any more

The list could go on and on. The most important thing to consider at this point is your mother for whatever reason does not want to do this anymore which I will add now as reason number 9. This is perhaps the most important, and sometimes not even considered by the caregiver. Naturally, there is the guilt that goes along with the decision, and I am sure your mother agonized over the decision. So, support your mum, do what you can to help her find the appropriate placement for you dad. And also think about what would happen to dad's care if something happened to mom. Placement will be difficult for your dad, no question and I hope you will be available to help both of your parents through that time by supporting your mom any way you possible can.

It is harder when it happens in our own families instead of watching from the position of an outsider or social worker. Maybe consulting with one would help your family through this would be helpful to you as well. It is very different when the shoe is on the other foot.
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