My sister has Durable POA, Medical POA (I'm second). Per her request and recommendation of her doctor, Mom was moved to AL about 30 days ago. Did not want to live with any of her 7 children. She is not adjusting well, making an ungodly number of phone calls, wants to go home but she can't live by herself anymore. Tonight, one brother told her he would come and get her tomorrow and move her into his house. He and his wife both work, there will be no one there and the only thing that will change is her physical location, minus all that the AL facility is doing for her. Can he legally just do this?
It can take a number of weeks or even months for someone to settle - and they are not going to do so if an and out of facilities. However if your brother (and his wife - I hope he has asked her) are able to provide a safe and stimulating home for your mother then why not let him have a go at doing so. I suspect she will be back in a facility within 6 months but maybe he can provide what she needs and make her happier.
This along with the "notes" your sister saw - IS this a real offer or is it just a way to placate her when she was upset, to get her off the phone? When my mother asked me to drop her off at her mother's on my way home, I had to fudge and say it's late, maybe tomorrow. This satisfied her at the moment and was promptly forgotten. Of course I wasn't going to take her, her mother had been gone 40+ years by then! Notes - yes, mom would hang onto notes she wrote, staff wrote, I wrote and ruffle through them, sometimes months later. We'd try to remove them when she wasn't looking, as they weren't relevant.
IS her facility just AL or is it MC?
Legally neither of you have much say really, unless the POA has specific wording. DPOAs and MPOAs are legal documents which facilitate managing a person's affairs, such as finances, bill paying, signing documents, etc, as well as enabling you to be involved in mom's medical care. As for "power" over a person and/or where they live, generally no. POAs are NOT going to help out there. Even staff told me they can't force anyone to do anything they refuse to do, medical care, medications, bathing, etc. They have to work with them to coax them into thinking it's their idea!
Even going for guardianship, many courts want to let the person retain as much independence as possible, so sometimes you can't even get full guardianship (depends on how much care THEY deem the person needs.) I suspect my mother wouldn't have even passed the sniff test (too early in dementia) to get guardianship, but we didn't go that route as the facility chosen wouldn't accept a "committal."
You and we really need more input - can ALL the kiddos get together and discuss? Perhaps he doesn't intend to take her in. If he does, has he any clue what he's in for?
Both my brothers on finding out how much MC cost said "for that kind of money" they'd take her in! CLUELESS the two were! OB isn't local. He came up a couple of times to help with the condo (a FEW times vs my 2.75 YEARS!) and on the last trip I sent him to visit with her. When I suggested another visit, given that once he went home he wouldn't likely get back to visit much, he REFUSED to go, saying he didn't know what to do with her. THIS was a man who was going to take her home, 2 days drive away, and have her live with him, but couldn't even take a short visit!!!
It would be best to find out the details. Is he really planning to do this? What does he have in place to care for her while they are working? If he isn't planning, then a meeting with staff to get her more involved in activities would be recommended. I didn't set mom up with a phone in her room as she wasn't really capable of using it or hearing well on it and ALL calls would be like your mother's. I didn't want her sitting in her room all the time. Staff had many activities to keep residents occupied and busy. One month really isn't long enough for her to "acclimate." I'd also be concerned if she's in just AL, not MC. They don't really keep AL residents "busy", as most just need physical assistance, not dementia care. They also aren't going to watch over her all day and she could just walk out at any time!
Adults who have children, spouses and financial obligations need to tend to THOSE obligations before they cater to the wants (not needs) of their parents who have had a lifetime to plan for their old age.
Until Mom is still anxious alone, still wants to go home, Brother & Wife are at work & then seem to have no privacy, no more holidays.
Calls to the OP start. Can you just.. this one time... I need you to take a turn.. why can't you take her for a while...
Of course, this is just ONE very judgemental scenario (based on own experience & others).
Happy ending exist too don't they??
If he and his wife are working, WHO will be caring for mom during the workday? She's already falling and having toileting issues. Other post from OP says he rarely even visited mom before this - why the sudden "change of heart", if it even is real?
Do any of her children live close to her AL? Maybe visits will help...and probing questions - such as why she's unhappy there and what can be done to help ease her adjustment? And, before making a decision on her moving in with her son, it may be more beneficial to do this in steps to assess how it's working out - maybe your mom can stay with him for an extended weekend or so first - and try that for a bit - in the end, she may decide that she'd prefer where she currently is - or not!
And if she does chose to move out of the AL and into your brother's home, it's beneficial for all the siblings to discuss how to support your mom and her options while they're at work during the day - perhaps adult day care of someone checking in on her, etc.
The positive part is it doesn't seem like it needs to be a rushed decision...and fortunately your brother has really been a support - there are so many families where that isn't the case and some siblings bolt when it comes to providing any help at all - and ultimately, the full responsibility is just on one sole sibling - which is my case - and it's a terrible place to be. Thankfully, there are options in your case and it sounds like a strong family unit.
Sonce you are secondary POA, you are limited to the fact that you can only step in should the primary POA be unable or not wish to.
As far as your mom wanting to leave, this is something that is normal for many especially when we get older. While you mom wants to go home it may not be in her best interest, however, the doctor may or may not be able to have a say in where she should be AL or in a family home setting with 24/7 care such as with her children.
You could see if mom is competent but that would come at a cost financially, emotionally etc.
POA is supposed to act in the best interest of the one who they are caring for.
Eventually, it may come that she takes a horrible tumble and be severely injured or worse, where the doctors will decide what is best by declaring she is unable to care for herself, but honestly I don't think you have much say. :-( you could check with an elder attorney and if the doctor says she can't live alone, you may have small opening to have her stay in AL.
1 month of being in an AL facility isn't enough time to make new friends, become accustomed to their schedules and so on. The one thing is that if you take a person from a familiar setting and move them to something different they become confused and agitated.
I wish you all the best as it is going to be a rough ride.
POA only has the ability to intervene if the grantor is declared incompetent. This could be by 2 doctors, stated in the POA or it would need to be through the courts. Taking away anyone's autonomy is serious business and you have to read the documents carefully to understand what authority really exists.
If she wants to go and they want to have her, help them insure her safety, maybe hiring companion sitters while they are at work, maybe getting a housekeeper or a in home chef to prepare meals.
There are ways to make this work if all parties, your mom, brother and his spouse in this case, are willing.
From my personal experience some doctors are way to quick to pull the facility trigger.
My mother was NEVER Dxed by a doc and we NEVER went to court to have her deemed incompetent. However it was NOT NOT NOT NOT EVER safe to leave her to her own devices.
Instead of fighting your brother, why don't you HELP them. He can get in home care for your mom when they are working. Check into IRIS which is a great program to help with financial issues if they need help there.
I regret EVER letting them put my sister into one of these places. The lack of care and abuse is off the charts! My sister died during the lock downs because of it.
I can understand mom not wanting to be there as they are all understaffed and not a fun, warm loving place to be.
It sounds to me Ike mom has changed her mind about not wanting to live with any of her 7 children.
Im sure you would too if you've ever spent a night or two in a facility.
Your mom has tried it for a month already and deffiently not happy living there.
Seniors do so much better and are so much happier and live longer being able to stay in their own home or move in with a loved one.
If there are 7 children and one wants to let mom live with him abd she wants to, then I think it's awesome.
You might call a family meeting to discuss the move and what is needed to help your brother help your mom live the rest of her life as happy as she can.
if mom can't afford to hire Caregiver help then the other 6 children she each donate money to the cause.
If your Dad was in the Military. You could check on getting help for mom as they provide spouses up to 30 hrs a week care and a few other things.
I think it's commendable of your brother Andover the compassion he's showing for his mom that has nursed and taken care of 7 children and now it has come the time to reciprocate.
Prayers
As already pointed out adjustment, for everyone, can certainly take more than 30 days. It does alarm me that your mother is now mistrusting you and your sister wether it be because your brother is actively trying to sway her or because she is talking to too many people who aren’t on the same page and coming out with what suits her for the moment. Ultimately she made the original decision that “she did not want to live with any of her 7 children” and elected to go to this AL, I have no doubt this was a process and she needs to be reminded that this was the option she chose for good reasons. The facts haven’t changed, she can’t live alone and she doesn’t want to live with any of you. She was part of crossing the place she is in and if she leaves she will loose it, she may or may not have the option to return to the same facility but not likely the same apartment/room. The cost of moving somewhere else and getting the help she needs needs to be considered as well by everyone.
Your brother may not participate, that’s his choice but maybe a meeting with all 7 siblings, difficult I know but it is the virtual meeting age, to discuss the facts and all of these issues. It should probably be led by your sister POA because she has been and will be the point person but you both need to be open to your siblings questions and views. The point being making sure everyone is on the same page and guiding your mom, giving her the right facts, in the right direction. This may be the only way to help her settle in or find out if it’s the wrong facility but even if one or two siblings aren’t on board with the rest understanding the facts it should be easier to keep her in the right place. She made the choices for her DPOA and back ups for a reason and I’m guessing that wasn’t a recent choice so deep down she trusts you and your sister. It can be hard for a mother to remind one child that she “chose” another so it may not be surprising that she sways depending on who she is talking to.
There would be conservatorship if she was deemed incompetent. If the person with poa attempts to coerce or force her to stay there the sibling or the mom can call social services.
I know how frustrating it is, I was a newcomer once here too. I now am on a another site and trying to figure out the terminology. It makes you think about leaving the site and not returning, doesn't it?
This is the link to that glossary: (as soon as I find it, I will edit this response)
Link to frequently used terms
https://www.agingcare.com/articles/common-caregiving-abbreviations-and-acronyms-435589.htm
People are using too many abbreviatons in their Q&A. Sometimes it takes me
5 minutes to understand what they mean. Not everyone of your readers is
familiar with this sort of texting.
Solution: Post some sort of chart at the beginningof each Q&A that explains what the most commonly used abbreviations mean.
when a parent moves there is always a 3-6 month adjustment period. My dad refused to leave his room for activities at first but finally adjusted and loved going to bingo. Many times to stop the whining, tears and fighting a sibling will just capitulate and think it’s the path of least resistance to move them out. They are thinking with the heart and not the head. Please don’t let him move her. Schedule the meeting route first.
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