So exasperated and tired from worrying about dad's lack of planning. How do I prepare myself for the inevitable financial mess?

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So exasperated and tired from worrying about dad's lack of planning. How do I prepare myself for the inevitable financial mess?

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I know I am staring down the barrel of a gun right now. Dad is 88 and has procrastinated til the bitter end. He is in bad health and my husband and I do most of his shopping and all of the driving to his many appointments. He lives alone and it's usually a dirty mess over there. He refuses household help. More to the point: He has no will. He owns no property but has several accounts. I am his POA. There is substantial money which he probably wants to go to my sister since he is partially supporting her in another city. This is fine with me, but she is not named as a beneficiary on anything despite discussion by me about this. Our mom passed away 13 years ago, and she is still named as beneficiary on some things. On some accounts there is NO beneficiary. Dad pays all his own bills and says he intends to work on all this, also once upon a time made an appointment with an attorney to talk about a will, then cancelled it. For one account, I copied a beneficiary form and placed it in front of him. No go. He is still procrastinating on it 7 months later. I feel like I can't nudge him any more. I love him and we are still buddies, but I am just fed up. So, bottom line, how can I prepare myself for the financial fallout of his death? I just want to shield myself now. Enough is enough.

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Hi, Calgirl. Good for you for making an appointment with an elder law attorney. Here are a few things to keep in mind: 1) In this situation, a good (read: ethical) attorney will realize and tell you quickly that your father has to meet with the attorney for the attorney to do work for your father. That is, for the attorney to do your father's estate planning, your father has to be the client. So you might want to start out by saying, "I'd like my father to have estate planning done. Do you have any suggestions for getting him to meet with you or another lawyer?" 2) Don't go into details about your father's financial accounts if your father isn't at the meeting. 3) If you're pretty sure your father won't meet with this lawyer, tell the lawyer that you're concerned about protecting yourself financially and ask for advice about how to do so. Then, if you choose to become the client, the lawyer can tell you things you can do and not do (e.g., pluses and minuses of being put onto bank accounts, doing your own estate planning, not signing anything that would make you personally liable for your father's obligations).

I hope it goes well.

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I am the original poster of this question. I want to sincerely thank everyone who has weighed in here. You all have helped me a lot. Shortly after I posted the question, he wound up hospitalized again for a few days. I then invaded his almighty privacy by looking through files and making a list of accounts. I have an appointment with an elder law attorney this week. I invited him to come along, and I expected some angry push-back. Dad has no interest in going but says he is happy to dump everything on me, just do what I see fit. RIGHT. So, I'll listen to the attorney, probably by myself, and get some clarity about something, anything. That's far ahead of where I was a month ago, in terms of my own inner turmoil. Thank you so much for being my support group.

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I don't care who or why - PROCRASTINATION IS SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE. I don't know all the answers but in this case, you must find out what you must do and ENFORCE THE NEW RULES - no matter what happens or what it costs or heaven help you. Some people are pure, stupid, selfish idiots and make everyone around them suffer. Seek out the advice of specialists who deal with old people and then do whatever it takes.

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This is a support group. Why is this kind of response necessary when someone asks for advice?

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Your father is being foolish. In conversation inform him that whatever state he lives in will have a field day figuring out all of his affairs especially financial affairs as he has no will. Inform him that the only people guaranteed to make money ( by taking his for legal fees) are attorneys. (No offense to attorneys here).

Often elderly folks understand better if they think their hard earned $ will go to anyone but the family.
Try one last time to appeal to his pragmatism.

My brother just just passed away in NJ. He was not indigent but not considered below the poverty level due to his SS.

I have been on the phone daily dealing with one detail and then another. He had no will. He had no “estate” as defined by the state.

You on the other hand will be inundated with much much more. It’s been almost a month for us & I can’t take it anymore. He bought a used truck in March that I am trying to figure out what to do with - and that’s the end. (I think.....lol). It’s beat the clock too - his insurance ends 7/19. It’s crazy! You can’t stop to grieve.

Please don’t stop trying to get your father to an Estate Attorney before he is deemed unable to make such decisions.

Try the “fib” that with no will his money will be tied up for years and depleted by additional costs for everything but it’s his choice. Let him know how bad a choice not having a will actually is - nothing but trouble for those who remain.

Research an established Estate & Inheritance firm & have his ppwk ready - IRS tax filings, everything so if the attorneys request it you will have it.

I hope your father agrees sooner rather than later.

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I’ve had this conversation many times with my Mom. She keeps saying that I’ll get everything, as she has a will. But my issue is with her not sharing reverse mortgage info, her banks, etc. I’ll have to dig around in her papers, I guess, when the time comes, to get have the information I’ll need.

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I'm in The same boat you are. You have my empathy...

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Me too, and my mom always talks about getting a will and who is going to be exuator, but it changes daily depending on who she is mad at

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Keep in mind that attorney-client privilege only applies to private communications with an attorney. Any other criminal activity you reveal or discuss in-person, or in writing, —even in a forum like this —can be discoverable in a legal proceeding.

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This man will procrastinate into the grave. You have a power of attorney and you must, forcefully if need be, take over everything. Since he refuses, you must contact all the account holders and the insurance companies. You must tell them your mother is gone. As to the beneficiary, talk with them about this. I do think you have the right to make it payable to the estate. If you can find a way, talk to an elder care attorney to prevent problems down the road. He is not going to cooperate - he will slowly kill you with his bad behavior. Leave him out of the equations and now you take over. You will learn a lot about each account and how to handle things as a Poa. They will help you. And as to your sister, perhaps consider some kind of a letter, witnessed, as to your father's help to your sister. Another thing is this - involve her in the overall situation. She must do her part with your father. But start making calls and talk to an Elder Care specialist attorney. Also, contact the local Office on Aging in your county. They are there to help people in your situation. Also take his mail and don't let him see it (hopefully he won't miss it or you can say it hasn't come yet). And if he lives in dirt and refuses help, tell him he is to get it cleaned up, with help, or you will put him somewhere. That hopefully will shake him up enough to allow help.

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Elder Attorney - you can call Legal Aid and find out of POA would automatically make you the beneficiary.

Is there no Secondary Beneficiary? Generally it would include all the children if no one person is named, to share equally.

Different states have different laws. I had a friend who became widowed and Pennsylvania refused to honor the New York will they had, so the widow only received 1/3 of the estate and the children (1) received the other 2/3 following the existing Pennsylvania laws at the time. And no, the child would not give to her mother what she knew her father had planned. So the widow only received 1/3 of what she was entitled to. Make the call to Legal Aid and find out what you need to do.

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But also, if you are is POA? This may sound kinda harsh. But maybe enforce that. If he's not making good decisions.

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Attorney. Not so cheap. But may be worth it.

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Two words - Financial Advisor.

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Calgirl - and everyone else here—

This post and many of the answers are completely disturbing and shocking.

Please see a lawyer and do not rely upon the laymans’ “legal” advice on this thread. You could wind up with criminal and civil liability.

If you get bad advice from a lawyer that is one thing, but it is no defense to say a bunch of strangers on a thread suggested you do something illegal and you took their advice.

No amount of money or stuff is worth going to jail.

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I would start by capturing his mail and seeing just what he has. Make an appt with an attorney and since you drive him everywhere just take him. Let the attorney tell him how much trouble you would run into getting things taken care of if he dies without a will. It doesn't have to be anything elaborate.
Go through things at his home and search for documents that may need beneficiaries. It will be a nightmare if everything has to go to probate. Ask him does he want the court system to get part of what he saved for years when he can do something so easy to take care of that. Start now!

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Your dad's quality of life is the most important. From your post, its written as if dad must be removed from all decision making. If he truly has funds somewhere, all of those funds will be used to pay back Medicaid or Medicare when he dies. It's called Estate-Recovery. He needs care, he no longer has the capacity to care for himself, so it's time for dad to hire home services, or to be admitted into a nursing home. You cannot wait otherwise he will die in squalor. You are no longer his "buddy" he is a liability to himself, and is a hazard to his health, minimally, that landlord will evict him if he continues to live in squalor. If your sister is disabled a special needs trust needs to be set-up, with that trust being the beneficiary. That generation tends to exaggerate their finances, if he owns zero real estate, then he has zero house in which to reside, without eviction possibilities, "renovations" are the most popular back-door eviction excuse to get rid of shitty tenants. Having your father live with you is always an option, whilst having home health care services take care of him.

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his funds won’t be used to pay back Medicare. Medicare is not the same as Medicaid, there’s no estate recovery.

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Remember depending upon state laws his "estate" might not need to be entered into probate. His life is more important than your unknown "inheritance."

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Slow down and read her post. She is not worried about an inheritance, she doesn't want a nightmare to deal with when he passes.

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I have many questions. Are you the POA for health or for health and financial? Is your father diagnosed with or suffering from any dementia? Are there other siblings? If you are POA for financial then you should have access to accounts if you can find out where they are, and you should be able to add beneficiaries on them. If you inherit, which you will after probate if there are NO other relatives, then you cannot gift to the aunt without incurring tax problems, but you could, say, pay for the aunt's care should she enter care, and if you would then be responsible for say some percentage of her expenses she would become a tax write off. The thing here is that if you have financial POA you can use it to act in behalf of your father to gather information, and one place to start would be an hour of time with an elder care attorney, which done in his behalf can come from his account; I would ask him if he would like to attend the conference with you. It sounds to me as though your father is failing. Should he need to move out of his home you should take your FINANCIAL POA to the post office and have his mail forwarded to you. This will give you at least the places where money is secreted away, if not who the beneficiary is. I am afraid you have a bit of sleuthing in your future. The one thing you cannot do is act in your father's stead or for your father without his agreement IF HE IS OF SOUND MIND, and that is the thing that is a question here. He is not behaving as though he does. See an elder care attorney. The other option is to go to court to have a court appointed guardian place on your father's finances if they are substantial. Then back away from it all altogether since you are not being allowed to act. This will cost your father money, but in the long run it may ultimately be necessary anyway. You can ask to be appointed as his only living relative, which would entail examination with doctors, or you could ask the court to appoint someone (who would as his Fiduciary be paid) to act in your father's behalf. I just cannot tell from your post the current condition of your Dad, or whether you are dealing with dementia or not. If he is demented it may be too late for a will, and only able to get guardianship. As the only living relative, after all is probated, you do inherit.

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Whoops. My answer won't make much sense and too late to correct it; I misunderstood and thought your dad's intentions were to leave money to HIS sister,not to your sister. It sure is complicated, isn't it?

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Check with atty in your state. As POA, you may be able to add your name to the accounts to make it joint account. You may not even need a will if you can just set the accts to pass to you/your sister at time of death. There would be nothing left to probate.

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You know what finally worked with my MIL, who refused to make any kind of EOL plans?

She was talking about how she'd just pass and she trusted her 3 kids to calmly disperse of her worldy goods, She just didn't want a fuss.

Teeth grinding--because that's NOT what would happen.

Finally, I flat out told her that the STATE would step in, appoint an attorney to go through ALL HER THINGS (yes, including her underwear drawer) and would assess the values of things and AFTER he'd given the state their chunk--only then would the family receive anything. (Yes, I know that's not the exact way it would go, but it would be a nightmare).

Being a DIL and not in a position to receive anything (she has made it known that I am not to be able to 'benefit' in any way from her demise--why would I even care?

She spent an hour with an attorney and was told pretty much exactly what I told her. She now has a will--but this could easily have gone the other way.

DH is her executor and he is livid. Doesn't even speak to her, but, dang it, he's gonna be in it up to his armpits.

She was angry, b/c it did cost her like $2K to have the will drawn up, but it's better knowing a stranger won't be pawing through her 'delicates'.

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Most important is to remain buddies. If there are assets, it will be a big mess if there is no will, prepare yourself. The government may get involved, and not to his benefit. And do you also have POA for medical issues in addition to financial issues? Try to get him to an attorney who will get him to write a will and take care of the beneficiaries on the accounts. I also switched all of my mother's accounts to joint accounts with my name on them. This also makes things much easier later. Not all parents will agree to this.

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My dad's attorney advised against any of us having a joint acct with my dad. If one of us were to, say, get into an accident and be sued (accidents happen!), it could tie up and/or drain the joint account to satisfy the settlement. However, my brothers and I are named as beneficiaries to various accts, my oldest brother is DPOA, and I am alternate DPOA.

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If he is helping your sister, can she manage a large inheritance or will she blow through it and then be looking to you for money?

This might be the button to push. Dad, sissy needs you to be responsible and set up a trust or will that only pays her xx amount monthly. I won't be able to help her financially and I know you don't want to see her ?be homeless? not eating? No meds? Whatever pushes him?, so let's do this.

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A trust set up for her...what a great idea and could be the best plan for her.

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One way is to tell him if he dies without doing the proper paperwork then the government will take a percentage so if he does nothing then he pays them more - that usually work if nothing else as nobody wants to pay extra taxes!

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This is not true, the government does not take a percentage. It is unethical to lie to someone this way. Even if the father choses, for whatever reason, not to execute a will (and only he can execute his own will, not, as someone in these comments suggested, the PoA), his estate will be disposed of in accordance to the state's laws on intestacy succession. Any asset that has a named beneficiary will go to that person.

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Gather as much info as you can about dad's finances, including beneficiary info on his insurance, investments, etc. then make an appointment with a lawyer for yourself to find out as much as you can about how Federal and State laws work with regard to someone who dies intestate. If there is no will then there will be an order of inheritance... your sister might not get as much as dad wants, however, because it will probably be divided equally among his children. Every state is different, though, so best to get an expert.

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While this is not a miracle in a book, I suggest that you read Being Mortal by Atul Gawande. I have read comments from people who felt that it really did not help them with their particular problem/LO, but it is not a "cookbook". 'What it did for me is to get me to a place where I could ask questions of my FIL to try to understand his thinking. He was 93 at the time and lived in own house with MIL. She has moderate ALZ dementia, and he had early vascular dementia. He was still driving, refused home help and would not move. I was awake almost every night worrying about the upcoming disaster which I knew was coming.

I asked variations of the "5 questions" to ask him what he wanted, what he was thinking about and what it would take for him to decide to move. I had this discussion when I was not aggravated by something he was not doing to suit me so that I could be patient and listen to his answers instead of telling him what to do. In our case, he knew he needed to move but he could not figure out how to start the process; he did not know how to do the first step and the idea of any of it was so overwhelming that he just refused to change anything. I think I was partly lucky, and partly just got him at the right moment. But also I think this book got me in the right frame of mind to talk to him and take a different approach by asking him about how he saw the future while did lead to a breakthrough,
The story of elderly people who refuse care, refuse to cooperate with efforts to assist them, refuse to allow family to assist with finances but cannot manage themselves is common everywhere there are elderly people. I think that they are afraid that if they give up one thing, it will start a slippery slope to loss of complete control and it often does because once they give up something, people find out what a mess it all truly is. But we don't really ask them what they want, and how the future might look to them. Sadly we cannot cheat death by procrastination and delaying these decisions increase the likelihood of that death being more terrible than necessary as well as leaving a mess for the survivors. So if what we are doing with them is not working, a different approach is worth a try.

Here are the questions.

Atul Gawande’s 5 Questions to Ask at Life’s End – Next Avenue

"We need to know: 1. What is your understanding of where you are and of your illness? 2. Your fears or worries for the future 3. Your goals and priorities 4. What outcomes are unacceptable to you? What are you willing to sacrifice and not? And later, 5. What would a good day look like? Asking these allows everybody to understand what the goal really is — what are you really fighting for? It’s for a life that contains certain things."

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Gawande's book is truly excellent. It does not, though, give advice on what to do about disposing of a decedent's assets.

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Calgirl, this may not be the nightmare it seems. When you father (a widow) dies, under CA law the children will share equally in all assets that do not have named beneficiaries. If your mother's name is still on some policies or accounts, all you need to do is have copies of her death certificate available. You and your sister will share equally in anything that your mother would have received. Anything with a named beneficiary is simple, you just give the B. a copy of the death certificate. Often the estate pays these taxes from the assets, so the beneficiary won't have to, as well as the usual estate taxes. It is simply not true that when a person dies the state gets everything. ONLY in the case that no immediate or distant family members can be found, will this happen.

You will need to file an application with your father's county probate court, requesting to be appointed administrator of your father's estate (and your sister may need to submit a sworn statement saying she is not opposed). If your father's assets will be complicated in terms of taxes or investments or trusts, you may need an estate lawyer, but very often you can handle this yourself if you're willing to invest the time. (Probate court staff are usually very helpful, too.) Try to relax about all this. Unless your father has unknown children out there, this might be much more straightford than you now think. Good luck (when the time comes--we're not trying to rush things!)

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Anything he has that doesn't have a beneficiary will be part of his estate. When he dies you can petition to be his personal representative and handle the estate through probate. Easier way is to go online and make up a will, you do not have to be a lawyer to do this. He sounds like on of those that thinks if he has a will, he will die, men are known for this thinking.

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It's part of his estate even if it has a beneficiary. It just doesn't have to go through probate.

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Going through it Right now as I write This and I am Too Pissed...My Blister Sister who Lives closer is Dad's POA but he Refuses to Put anyone in this Will (Living Will) To get anything or Take charge of his Finances and the State will get it all during a PROBATE after he is gone. That stinks. He this Poor Man's Will.
You cannot do anything, Sweetie, Sorry to say. Be this POA, Do what you can to Help, Knowing when the Smoke clears One day, You were the Angel with Wings and Things...

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It is simply not true that when a person dies the state gets everything. ONLY in the case that no immediate or distant family members can be found, will this happen. Someone, usually the closest relative, who may be the PoA (whose power to act ceases at the time of death) will apply to Probate Court to be appointed Administrator of the estate and then dispose of assets in accordance with the state's laws on intestacy. The PoA has NO AUTHORITY to 'put someone in the will' for the person.

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We had a similar issue with my in laws. So we got together with our own attorney and asked him what our options are and how we could proceed to get all their affairs in order. He ended up writing a will for them which we took to them, they read over and they did sign it. Actually, it seemed like they were a bit relieved that it was done for them. They had had a will it was very outdated as my BIL had been killed a few years earlier. Our attorney also wrote new POA's, taking my BIL out of the POA and putting my step daughter in. A good attorney will be able to advise you on how best to proceed. As my MIL ages (FIL died in December) we continue to consult our attorney on how to legally protect her and keep her safe in all ways. It may help you also to consult an attorney... preferably your own who already knows you and your own situation.

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You have to get stern with him or you’re going to have a big mess with having to hire a lawyer which cost a lot and going to court. Just tell him you won’t help him anymore if he doesn’t get his paperwork done. Also, are you financially well off that you don’t need any of the money? I hope you’re able to sign his checks because if he passes away and you’re not on there, you won’t be able to use it for the burial.

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Two possible options. One is to make an appointment with an attorney for a consult, and since you drive him to all his appointments tell him you have one and want him to go with you and out to lunch. You can pretend it’s for you to make a will. While there you get the conversation to where the attorney gives the spiel about dying without a will or proper beneficiaries. And fingers crossed he just might agree to having a simple will done.
or you go alone and get the lawyer to record him or herself into the voice recorder on your phone to explain what dying without a will does. Then play it for your father. He will have to name an executor on his will if he does have one drawn up...make sure you really want to be the one before you say yes. Or you can let the court appoint one.
Does your dad even say he is willing to do a will but just won't move off the dime, or does he not want to do one?

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You should let him do what he wants when he wants.

He needs to make the legal appointments and all his own decisions. He needs to get himself to the appointments.

Any will could be easily overturned if you are Involved in any way.

Take this seriously. It is better to get nothing than to be in a position where you are defending yourself in court.

Legal battles could easily cost you more than his assets and the insurance money put together.

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Does he have a diagnosis of dementia? If so, time may be of the essence. It becomes more urgent if they have dementia as to when they actually "know what they are signing.

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So exasperated and tired from worrying about dad's lack of planning. How do I prepare myself for the inevitable financial mess?

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