What are your thoughts on euthanasia in the medical field assisted suicide?

What is so noble about making a person in excruciating pain suffer when the pain can be relieved by morphine? I really do not understand this thinking. After all, we all need water to survive, but you can die of drinking too much water. Should therefore water be illegal? It's a question of reasonable use and intention does matter. Relieving pain is good. Morphine given in a dosage to kill is not. Some people want to hold onto life as long as possible; others are content to let go when quality they want is not possible; Nothing wrong in refusing treatment that is onerous and will not cure.

[ Janlin wrote:

Okay paranoia or logic. Of course, the medically assisted suicide laws will be placed and sooner than we think! Money folks! The insurance companies are lobbying for this. Care costs are astronomical and because of “our longevity” grandkids are being brought in to care for elderly parents and grandparents. We can romanticize the morality or the high road of taking what God hands down. The medical world will be involved, there is no other logical, humane options for an over burdened system. Yep, that’s reality! ]

Janlin:

I think that is the point of the original question.

Medically assisted suicide is already taking place. It is simply not labeled as such.  If  you read postings on this forum, it is quite clear that medically assisted death is taking place as we read this.

And, yes. It is all about money and hospital beds on the part of the medical system

But also on the part of the family, it is all about not wanting to spend mom's or Dad's money on extending her/his life for a few more years.  

Thus they rationalize that the parent is in pain and better off dead.  When the truth is they are thinking, why bother spending all their money to keep them alive a few more years, when all it will do is eat up more of their money.

There are natural approaches to all the issues raised to allow a person to die a natural death, rather and a chemically hastened death.

Some patients using this method actually survive far longer than expected and comfortably.

Most alternative life-extending measure are all labor intensive and require an ongoing expenditure of money, not always covered by medicare or medicaid.

So, in the minds of many, it's much easier to rationalize to themselves that they saved their parents a lot of pain and misery by hastening their death. 

Okay paranoia or logic. Of course, the medically assisted suicide laws will be placed and sooner than we think! Money folks! The insurance companies are lobbying for this. Care costs are astronomical and because of “our longevity” grandkids are being brought in to care for elderly parents and grandparents. We can romanticize the morality or the high road of taking what God hands down. The medical world will be involved, there is no other logical, humane options for an over burdened system. Yep, that’s reality!

I have talked to elderly people who are in pain, yet they insist that they want all life saving measures taken because they want to live longer.

These types of elderly will refuse morphine or other pain killers because they fear it will kill them sooner.

There are monks who believe in a conscious death and some educated elderly are aware of these teachings and wish to follow them. That should be their choice.

I have also talked to people who are ready to die. That should also be their choice, unless they are coerced by relatives.

Patient choice is important. No medical personnel or family caregivers should be making this choice.

It is far far too easy for family who are simply tired of taken care of a sick relative, or who are afraid all their inheritance will be spent on caregiving.

In addition, denial is a very strong defense mechanism and it is also all too easy for those who are tired of caregiving a relative or a patient to convince themselves that they did something in the best interest of the patient.  Very sad.

Yes, there are bad apples everywhere.  Medical personnel like the angel of death in Pennsylvania that was independently making the decision to euthanize patients that he alone deemed were suffering

Yes, their are greedy relatives worried about the parents dwindling bank account, used to spend on healthcare.

The court houses are filled with transcripts of such events


That is why it is important to ensure patient choice and oversight.


There is no reason for anyone to object to patient choice or oversight

I agree, people need to check their facts before deciding hospice killed their loved one. Having recently lost my MIL, after 3 months on hospice, I understand a little better now, why some think hospice is euthanasia. I still don’t buy into it, I don’t think it’s true and they did not euthanize my MIL or speed up the process at all. When her breathing got really really bad and she appeared to be within a week of dying, they did tell her partner that they wanted him to turn down her oxygen (it was at 16 or 18) and start giving her morphine. She was starving for air, she was suffocating to death because the person closest to her thinks hospice is euthanasia and that the meds are given to kill the patient. He had her scared to take the morphine so for the last month of her life, she suffered. So on that Sunday when hospice brought up turning down the oxygen to 12 & giving her morphine, to him they were euthanizing her. Now I need to make it clear, keeping the oxygen at 16-18 liters didn’t help her breathing. There was no benefit to keep it that high. They wanted to lower it & allow her body to breath on its own a little more and to control it with the morphine. This would all her to be comfortable in her final days, otherwise she would have died struggling to breath. Decreasing the oxygen and starting morphine signaled that the end was near. She was not euthanized. The morphine didn’t kill her, it didn’t stop her heart. Her heart was already very weak and working extra hard to keep blooding pumping through it. In her final hours, her breathing was noisy and labored and eventually her heart gave out. Morphine didn’t stop her heart. Her heart gave out. Had she not been on morphine, she would have been struggling to breath until the very end. It would have been a slow and cruel suffering death! In her last few days, she was obviously in her final days, death was near whether she took morphine or not, she had completely stopped eating, could hardly talk and she stared off into space a lot. Her blood pressure had also dropped. Her partner hasn’t changed his opinion on anything either. He told me he knew it was the end when she started taking the morphine, that she was going to die and that he isn’t the one who made the decision, that it’s all on my husband. I will never understand why anyone would choose the alternative for their loved one. Hospice is all about keeping the patient comfortable, not killing them. Either you give them morphine and Ativan to keep them comfortable and pain free or you let them suffer a slow painful death. My MIL had medication available to her that would have allowed her to stay comfortable these last 3 months of her life but she resisted most until the end all because her partner told her the drugs would kill her! She spent a lot of nights waking up in a panic, unable to breath. I will never understand how her partner could sit back night after night watching her suffer like that. How he could see, 4 days before she died, that she really couldn’t breathe anymore! The slightest movement made her oxygen levels drop to 30! And to the very end, he wanted to prolong her suffering life. I’m at peace now but I will never understand why it had to be this way.

Everyone here must have good insurance because everyday people with poor or no insurance are left to die and don't fool yourselves...medicaid people get very little care for huge health issues. If someone is in extreme pain and I am making a decision, its a no brainer. the end.

I agree Jacksonsmimi, but if God doesn't want a soul to die, they wont. I have seen...

Ive read too many of these so I will answer now. Pertaining to Flogo. DNR is only used when the patient is critical enough to not be recovering. If what you say really happened, then you need a lawyer. Im hearing that your mom recovered and was healthy??? I have never seen this happen and I used to do Hospice. My mom is now in nursing care. I go every day. She has horrible arthritis, we are using comfort care to keep her pain under control. She eats, goes to bingo and watches TV. When the pain gets so bad that she is not "living" anymore, she will be on full hospice. Yes I am her POA and Medical advisor. DNR's are the best things to ever happen to healthcare. I want my signed and sealed in blood. I do not want to live if I am incapacitated by a disease, stroke,alzheimers. I have seen people way outlive their lives, lying in bed, drooling, incontinent, and families who quit coming for whatever reason. I want to be in charge of my own health. If there is not family to be in charge, then Im afraid that the medical community should make the Hospice decisions. Its a very slippery slope.

Veronica, Thank you, well written!

Heather10 I agree in a few cases the burden becomes to much but that doesn't necessarily mean they would rather they died. Another big motivating factor is the desire to get hold of the expected inheritance and not spend that money on the relatives care. One of the first questions often asked of a patient or their caregiver in the ER is if they have a DNR. It has happened to me many times including on my way into the OR for a ruptured appendix. it is to determine which way the treatment should go. Put the patient through many expensive tests after which they may find it not safe to try effective treatment .
My experience has been that in the ER once you are in that gown next the IV then the tech from the path lab to draw blood.

These blood tests are usually very comprehensive and assist greatly in the diagnosis. Another thing that is extremely important is to have a list of current medications because the symptoms odat's Mom was experiencing could have been reactions to drugs.

Drs on the whole these days are pretty stingy with medications especially narcotics because misses willet the drs penalized under new rules. Remember that medical licence is their livelihood and once lost may never be reinstated.

Neglect is a totally different issue as is value for an elders life, and what they may see as their own failure as a physician when they loose a patient.

That is not to say I have not seen a Dr give a dose of lethal medication but they have done it themselves when the patient's suffering was intolerable. i like to think the hand of God directed that to be done. Telling a nurse to do it is in my view totally unacceptable.

When a patient is almost dying it is very easy to give a patient the final dose of a medication before their death and have that viewed as euthanasia.

This is not a clear cut black and white issue so every one should do their research and check their facts before assuming hospice killed their relative.

By the way Dr Cecily Saunders was working on Hospice in the 1960 in the UK and it was never a money making operation because of socialized medication. I do not agree with some of the protocols later put in place but I believe they are no longer used and the Liverpool pathway has met its end. Hospice itself is many cenuries old and goes back to travelleries arive in a monastrys in remote areas and being taken care of by the monks till their deaths.
Hospices in poor remote parts of the world are very different from those we know in developed wealthy countries. My husband made several visits to malawi several years ago as a medical volunteer and saw first hand there was little chance of anyone being euthanized with morphine there as their was so little available. All mediacal supplies were in extremely short supply and the nurses frequent did not have gloves.

Many European Drs go to Malawi to gain experience in conditions not seen in the west these days. They work without pay while there.

A western trained nurse who should be seen as gold has to work many months before being seen as experienced enough to be registered and get paid.

I know there are bad apples everywhere so it is so important to do your research, ask a lot of questions and remember you have the right to say NO. God Bless.

Odat1993:

Excellent point and post.

Yes. Many times a person seems to be near death but is not.

It is sad that doctors encourage giving dosages of meds that effectively euthanize a person because their are just too many people out their who will go along with this because they are simply tired of caretaking the relative.

I just had a very similar situation. Mom came in to Er severe jerking in her arms and body, although not unconscious she was. Very lethargic and disoriented. The ER docs first question was have you discussed your moms wishes. When she went to ICU again they began discussing hospice and that maybe it was time. The only reason I hesitated was that mom never talked about stopping dialysis. We had a family meeting and decided to give it a couple of days to see if antibiotics would work and then we would make a decision. Another doctor took over her care and asked her to hold out her arms so he could see the jerking. He thought her ammonia level was high. Sure enough it was double what it should be and within the next three days they gave her medication. She is back home now a little worse for where, but fully cognitive. I am so grateful that I gave it a couple of days despite what the doctor and even the nurses said at times

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to say that my head says this is no way for a person to live, but my heart as a believer tells me that God is our final authority, especially over death. He created us, and it is not for me to say when my life should end.

With all due respect to those reading here, I do not believe that time of death is for any of us to decide. God is the author of life and should be the final authority over when every person should die. I have been watching my sweet husband decline for 8 years from early onset Alzheimer’s. My head says this is peat for anyone to live,

(Hugs) to you HolidayEnd. It is possibly the most difficult thing to do/decide.

Did your mother make her final wishes known? If not, all I can say is that you make your decision based on what you would choose for yourself if you were in your mother's condition.

Don't second guess yourself and remember that whatever you choose you do it out of love. (Hugs)

Heather10– Hospice didn’t exist in the US until 1990 or so. Britain began hospice during the 1980s (while cutting budget for the social medicine system).

But the act of putting someone out of their misery is as old as humankind itself. I’m a retired oncology RN and I’ve done it. Of course it was done in the hospital, a doctor ordered it to relieve pain but the nurse actually DID IT. We’d use a morphine drip.

A few years ago I went through a deep depression knowing I did this. Was it the right thing to do? I finally decided my intention was to relieve pain and suffering and it wouldn’t have been done if a doctor hadn’t ordered it. The families were also torn but I’ve had patients screaming and writhing in pain as they die and nothing relieved them and the families just wanted it over, as did the patient.

Caring for dying people is at once peaceful and profound. But also ultimately destructive to some medical personnel.

I’m going to have to decide about hospice for my mother before too long and I don’t know what I’ll decide.

.

Singinway wrote: [ Hospice will tell you pointedly that upping the oxygen saturation will stop the body's breathing, and which drugs given too close together will cause cardiac arrest.

Although you'd think this was meant to be a caution, their attitude and demeanor clearly shows that it is meant instead to be an "out" for the person, if they want to speed up the dying, or for the family, if they want to speed up their loved one's dying process.

Then they get so inured to it, they start to advocate speeding up the process even before "active dying" starts! ]

Singinway:

Well said.   All very valid points.

It's a slippery slope.

I am in favor of assisted suicide whether in a hospital or at home. My Mom is suffering and has been on hospice for two years. They originally gave her 6 months and she just lingers on and has no quality of life and cries to die. She can't walk, she has mini strokes, bed sores though we move her all the time. If you lay her down she gets them one place and if you sit her in a chair they come in another place. We had them all cleared up once and now they are coming back again. She is mentally aware and in her right mind so able to consent. Our Hospice doesn't believe in over medicating but I need one that does. All the family is in agreement but we have no way out for her. She begs me to kill her daily. So sad and is mentally and physically tearing me down.

I believe there should be an "out" for those who are suffering, and/or who have a DRN in place. Living with my elderly parents at home and seeing their emotional pain at their own dementia breaks my heart. It's so hard to see them die mentally while their body lives on. Add to that some horrible illness or injury--. No, I've decided for my own future, let me die or pull the plug on me. When a loved one is suffering and won't recover, why prolong life? Where's the value for anyone in that situation?

I know this will not be a popular response but, truth is light.
The authority to take a life whether our own or another for any reason, it is not ours. God never gives the authority for such a thing.
I believe it is in the category of murder.
In this life we have a bit of suffering we must go through. And there is a reason for everything.

If something were to happen to me, I am requesting to go with dignity. I do not want to be a burden on what's left of my family, and I also never married nor had children

You all may not like this, but physicians vary tremendously on how much the value or devalue the lives of people with disabilities, and people who devalue them will gravitate towards being providers of physician-assisted suicide. DNR is fine. Refusing burdensome life-extending care of any sort is fine. Accelerated death via cookie-cutter hospice protocol that disrespects individual choice, and lethal injections are not. Keep in mind also that funerals are cheap compared to medical care, and assisted suicide has ALREADY been proffered as a covered service while novel cancer chemotherapy was denied to people.

It should be legal here in Delaware (Smellaware). Should something happen to me, I am requesting to go to Heaven with dignity. Also, no funeral, no obit in the paper, no nothing. I know it's newsworthy and people are interested but I do not have any immediate family in the area that I live in, and it gets lonely when the holidays roll around; I wish they would be done away with

I. speaking for myself only, want quality of life, not quantity of life.

I don't want to be bedridden, to be fed, wear diapers, and have my behind cleaned, or lose my mind and my memory and become narcissistic or violent (as in many Alz and dementia cases.)

I don't want to rob my children of their normal lives with their spouses and their own children. I don't want them to quit their jobs, lose their income, and be doomed to poverty in their old age.

I don't want to use up limited resources, millions and millions of dollars, just to keep my body alive with no purpose other than to breath and suffer a life with no dignity. All these monies have to paid for by my children and other people's children, NOT government. Government does NOT make money, it only takes money from working people.

I don't want my children to keep me alive just so they don't feel guilty.

I, speaking for myself only, will prefer a peaceful euthanasia cocktail, or assisted suicide, and DNR.

I KNOW there is an after life. So, death is not the end of me. I will watch my children from above living to raise their children, not spending their lives trying to drag out a few more months or years of my suffering.

There are many topics in this forum. I'm trying to learn as much as possible to give the best care I can. I am not a professional in any way. But the demand for in home quality care is a scary thought. The horror stories that make the news disgust me. Elder abuse is up there with child abuse and animal cruelty. It pisses me off!
That being said, I am the person that steps in to assist in the home. Hospice is kind of like euthanasia. Keep them as comfortable as the can as the go thru the transition.
Somewhere in this forum, I read of a daughter wittnesing her deteorating parent who actually starved to death. Another who drowned because of lung issues. In those circumstances, I believe it would benefit the patient to speed up the inevitable. With or without consent. Can you imagine, a slow death from starvation. Unable to speak for yourself. I don't know the poitics of it all. Or who decides how. It should be slowly put to sleep in a warm and comforting environment, surrounded by loved ones. Not alone. Not clinical.

I just answered this question and it disappeared and did not post so I will enter it again. People live and make choices for schools, where to live, what jobs they want, clothing they wear, what cars to buy, what doctors they want to see, and the list goes on. Why on earth should they NOT be allowed to decide what happens to them in the future and when they should be allowed to pass. No one should have any rights to force people to do this or that. People should be fully INFORMED and given options so they can then prepare LEGAL documentation to make sure their wishes are honored. Only the individual person has the right to make this decision - so do it now while you are still able to do so.

Rovana, I like what you said about declining treatment; many health professionals try to force treatment (chemo, surgery, etc.) on people; I know, it happened to me. I said NO, and others have, too; it is not the same as suicide or assisted suicide; we just have seen too much suffering with the treatments being used now, and not enough benefit - not willing to do it.

In our society, money is like god - people who are seen as "disposable" would be pushed to accept euthanasia ...That is a fact. If a person wants to end their life, suicide is not treated as a crime, so if you want to, do so, but leave everyone else out of your decision.

Please do not make doctors do this! We can't focus on helping and healing if we also have to think about killing. And those of us who are less supportive, less knowledgeable, or less tolerant of disability will push euthanasia on people who may not really want it and who could recover to a good enough quality of life.