flowgo Asked June 2015
What are your thoughts on euthanasia in the medical field assisted suicide?
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I just want to know *who* thinks 'this could work!'
Ummm.... For training on the hoist, how about asking your GP to ask the physios at Southampton? Or your nearest rehab centre, if there still is one (they're closing them down faster than pubs, apparently)? All you need is to get in there and watch for half an hour, and have a couple of goes on it.
Yesterday as an example I had a visit from TWO OTs (why it needed two is beyond me) Neither of them had English as a first language and their accents were quite strong. Bearing that in mind we identified it and asked them to speak slowly and clearly and check Mum understood. And did that happen? Of course it d*mned well didn't. So now they are going to send out a third one - who doesn't understand dementia at all and expects me to be there every time she moves to pick something up - yeah like that's going to happen!
All I want is a bloody hoist and to be trained in how to use it and I have offered to buy the bloody hoist. So far they have spent oodles on visits from people my mum didnt understand and time that I simply don't have. Apparently I am doing all the care completely wrong and I must now do it a different way.
As a result of their visit and the ONE attempt to do it their way I am now back on Tramadol. Am I cross? Nooooo of course not I am d*mned livid!
I shared my hospital experiences with a nurse doing a pre op interview the other day. She asked which hospital and when I told her she said they did the best they could to kill her Uncle.Did not suceed thankfully because he had a strong advocate.
I now have a very dear friend who has one father and one MIL and one FIL and no contact with her mother for over 20 years (nor will there ever be contact and for a very very good reason).
All 3 of these loved ones are now in a terminal state two with metastasising cancers and one with motor-neuron disease. All have been given a time span so we are talking day weeks and one case months.
All of them want to die with dignity and she is utterly helpless because we don't have that in the UK. Meanwhile they live about an hours drive (each in different directions so to visit them all is a 7 hour slot and how she is managing it and doing a job is totally beyond me. She tells me that as they only have such a short time she needs to make it the best she can for them.
So now I see another side to it all - what about the family who are absolutely run ragged trying to do their best for people who don't want to live anyway. Moreover how would they cope if all three died in a short time span like within hours of each other?
Her health is sure to suffer if she keeps up this insane pace and no-one is offering to move all of them to the same hospital because it simply can't be done (Heaven forbid the social worker couldn't tick a box!)
There is no simple answer for sure - all I can tell you is that she totally opposes death with dignity and is doing a fabulous job.... I just wonder at what cost to herself
This is such a polarizing topic. While it can make for an interesting discussion. I feel it's one of those "Let's just agree to disagree, topics" and leave it at that.
Either they create a medical directive that says when to withhold medical intervention...or they don't, and they then let the medical profession work them over until the insurance runs dry.
But..even making no specific choice is a choice.
For myself...if there is not a chance for a recovery to regain quality of life..meaning some activity level....then let me go!
And...I live in Colorado...and yes, I do have the right to have medical intervention to end an insurrable, uncurriable medical condition. BUT, I do not think it is right to force this on anyone who has not made that choice in sound mind. I do not like hospice for this reason. I feel that they are pushing their "service" on family members who do not understand the choice...and forcing a choice for their loved ones who can no longer make informed choices for themselves. Maybe the medical directives need to be clear about the choice for or against the use of hospice.
To address the method of euthanasia: in animals we use a drug that is an overdose of Pentobarbital. It is also very common to first administer a dose of Propofol so the patient is asleep when the Pentobarb is given (this is particularly helpful if the patient has cardiac disease and it may take longer than desired for the entire dose of Pentobarb to complete the circulatory system and hit the brain where it takes effect, already being asleep ensures no consciousness of the process). When administered correctly (read: slow at first) the first effect of the Pentobarb is to remove all consciousness so the patient has no awareness and feels no pain. Then the heart and lung function stops. It takes a matter of seconds to complete the process. There is often some spasming and what is called agonal breaths due to lactate still in the muscles and electrical impulses still present, however we know that the patient is already brain dead and the heart has stopped. It is virtually the ONLY way a living thing can die painlessly and quickly. I have not only watched hundreds (thousands?) of animals die in ICU over the last 13 years that I've worked in ER/ICU but I have also watched my great-grandmother, grandmother, father, and close friend die. I am painfully aware that a "natural" death is 99% of the time really ugly- i.e. the person or animal SUFFERS. Why do we allow this? I believe it is because we are selfish and don't want to deal with our loved one leaving us for good. Why can't we- in accordance with our loved one's wishes- administer the same drugs we use in Vet Med to relieve suffering so they can go peacefully?
Why on earth would you want to keep alive a person who is totally mentally gone never again to recover, or in terrible pain, and the list goes on. If there is no possibility of a "tomorrow", then that person should have the right to be humanely euthanasized. I feel not to do to so is very selfish and totally ignores the peace and well-being for the patient. I stand by this belief no matter what. It is the only humane, decent thing to do.
Thank you for putting into words how I understand the euthanasia issue.
Many people might agree with you if they were better informed.
I agree with what you wrote.
There is just too much room for malicious acts when assisted suicide is the norm.
There have to be exception of course. I am thinking of the nurse during hurricane Katrina who deliberately over dosed patients that that could not be moved from their nursing home to save them the agony of waiting for death by drowning.
Agree with everything CM has written.
The purpose of a DNR is to allow people the right to die when it is their time and everyone should consider this and advance directives long before they are close to needing those decisions made.
Neither my husband nor I want to be kept alive in a vegative state by artificial means but at the same time we also do not want someone to have the right to waltz in with a syringe full of euthanazia mixture and put us to sleep
The trouble begins when your choice requires the participation of other people. You do not have a God-given right to demand that someone else kills you (though I understand that there are plenty of willing professionals around, as I expect you'll be relieved to know).
And the other trouble is, no man being an island, that your choice, by normalising euthanasia, impacts on others who may not be so assertive or so clear in their own minds about their wishes. You're very certain of what you want. Others aren't. Especially when they are frightened or in pain or, of course, demented.
The line in the sand is there to protect the extremely sick, the severely disabled, the very young, the very old, the socially vulnerable, from being murdered.
As far as I know, suicide is no longer a crime in Western society (although I assume it's still a mortal sin, not that I'd know). Those who wish to determine the time and place of their death are free to do so, especially in America where you retain the right to bear arms. Not keen? Then what you're asking for is not the right to die when you want to, but to die nicely, with the full assistance of the medical profession. Well, that too can be arranged: it's all a matter of timing, and money.
What you're asking for, too, is not only that it should be legal for you to head for the exit when you feel like it, but that society should approve of and in fact adopt your principles - in fact, you say as much. Well, I for one believe those principles in practice would have unintended consequences, and it's not myself I'm worrying about.
Hospital staff can and will bully patients and family of patients to the point of forcing the sedatives in one way or another.Not all hospital staff are like this, I often mention the good ones too.
however,since this can be such a problem, I can not see it to be reasonable for medical staff to have possession or be allowed to hand out euthanasia meds.It just would not be safe.I have mentioned bad staff cause there are medical staff that are very bad, as I found out.That does not mean that I am saying the caregivers here are bad. I know most of them are taking care of their parents or other family in their home and I consider that kind of care to be very thoughtful and caring.It is a very good deed when people take care of another human being.
The others they were so bad that they did not even realize that they made a mistake, if they were even mistakes. They may have just not cared. Either way it is not safe. Forcing deadly drugs on someone, not just once is no mistake. What is the meaning behind that.Is that also what you would consider a mistake or just bad staff. I would say bad staff in 5 of these facilities not all of them but most all of them. The only true mistake I saw was the one by the doctor who had learned from his mistake and I m pretty sure he would have never repeated it on her again. That was the only true honest mistake I ever saw. I would call it foul play. It was not a natural death.
As I mentioned before, it was so bad that I was getting threatened to have the security kick me out of the hospital when I literally stood between them and my mom trying to block and stop them from sedating my mom. If I did call the police 911 by the time the police come she would be drugged already.
I should have called anyways, if everyone called when their relative was forced to take deadly sedatives against their will and the families,then eventually this may get some attention.If this isn't corruption,then I don't know what you would consider corruption especially when this happens not one facility but 5.That is the true definition of corruption.
With this going on, I suggest we concentrate more on enforcing the laws of no euthanasia and keep it out of the medical field and definitely keep it out of the medical staffs hands.
When such severe druggings take place over and over again so severe that my mom is forced to take and be tortured by drugs to the point of great harm and or death in 5 different facilities, then something is terribly and seriously wrong and it is time for a change.
If I can help just one person be aware of what can happen so they can protect their loved ones then that is be good enough for me.I know I have helped more than that already and that is what counts.
Sorry but thats how I see this thread now. And yes I will take my own advice and discontinue reading this thread.
Time to take a break, please, take a deep breathe and focus on something else. Do some volunteer work to help you take your mind off of this, as this is not healthy for you.
We can never know what makes thes %^&$%&rds want to do this we just know they are out there. For this reason WE have to be vigilant, look for and deal IMMEDIATELY with any anomaly we see.
I have done that in hospitals, I have done that in respite homes, I have done that with my own doctor - it's simple, OK why is Mum having this, is there an alternative, what are the side effects we should be looking for. Can I see Mum's medical chart please.....why has this been given? How did she fall? I want to see a doctor now please....these are not difficult calls. Professionals are skilled people - they are not superhuman; they do make mistakes and we as relatives should always always check to make sure things go smoothly.
I will grant anyone that fact. What I won't grant is that there is some insidious plot, plan, systemic sickness, conspiracy, business incentive (utter tosh) that has some hidden agenda of killing elderly people for NO REAL GAIN. There are known ways of checking for this type of malpractice they are called autopsies (post mortems in the UK) and if you shout loud enough they will perform one. If poisoning IS found they WILL investigate.
When a loved one dies, you can ask the hospital to perform an autopsy. The hospital pathologists usually have no affection with the clinicians who treated the patient i.e. they are basically independent.
If the family prefers, a private pathologist can do the autopsy in the funeral home. It does not matter much whether the body has been embalmed first.
So if you suspect foul play then my big question is why didnt you demand an autopsy? And if you now feel bereft because the unthinkable did happen and MISTAKES were made, note I say mistakes not murder, then you MUST seek help.
HOWEVER angry upset empty you feel you cannot just across the board say that this was murder and that it was a deliberate ploy by some staff in some hospitals. I still think you are not in full possession of the facts and are unlikely to be given that an autopsy would have revealed any of the issues you are declaring to be true and you havent declared that an autopsy took place as far as I can see through your endless postings.
I know the difference between error and not. In one of the 5 facilities, I actually sat down with the nurse and explained to her in detail that my mom was in this hospital to recover from a previous sedative overdose, so she must not have sedatives. This is also noted in her chart. My mom would also (when not unconscious from and overdose) refuse sedatives.
I then step out and come back and my mom is unconscious. I look at my unconscious mom then look at the nurse in complete shock as the nurse tells me I could say no to these sedative drugs.Then why the hell did she not tell herself no before she drug my mom into a severe dangerous coma that lasted for at least 3 days and caused damage.What was wrong with her? Is that really considered a mistake? If so this is such a horrible mistake that if the staff is that incompetent to not understand the drug they are giving, the chart, or the family who says the patient can not have this drug then those facilities should not be open don't you think? I can tell you more horrible sedative horror stories that were so bad that I don't see how they could be mistakes unless the staff is absolutely mentally challenged. They did not have those kind of symptoms so then what is wrong with them.
A doctor at the beginning of all of this did give her ativan he gave her a little bit but she became agitated (symptom of nms sensitivity). He thought that she needed more so he gave her the right amount for her size and that was it, but it was too much for her. It knocked her out all day. He made an honest mistake.He apologized and appeared to be quite upset (A GOOD DOCTOR). he also said that she should never have ativan again because she can not tolerate it, she has a sensitivity. I appreciated his honesty and sincerity.He actually cared unlike the rest of these horrible staff who did as they pleased no matter how much havoc hell they caused my mom.
This kind of mistake happened at five facilities. Some she was closer to death then others and others she was getting damaged from it.They were all terrible accept the one with the good doctor but that was not one of the five. That happened at the beginning just before she had the procedure. That hospital was not so close or I would have taken her there. I actually should have taken her there instead of the others. The doctor who did the procedure did not want her to be drugged with sedatives.When I told him he was not ok with it.
I think that it could be big pharmacy business who are giving staff insensitive. Or staff that don't want to deal with patients so they put these patients in harms way without a care in the world, literally. At least when they do something wrong then they should at least be upset about it.