Should I give my mom a trial at living with us to prove that it won't work?

onetoughcookie - the fact that your husband doesn't want her in your joint home means "no". You cannot do this - it is his house too. Your mom is responsible for her happiness - you are not. Your mom is responsible for getting a social life and friends - you are not responsible for this. She has you enmeshed in her misery and feeling guilty for things you have no control over nor should you be responsible for. Counseling might help you see the issues and create boundaries - it did for me.

Also...i forgot this. Check out Geriatric Care Manager for Mom and or Home Health Care. You can start by calling CICOA or Senior Center in her home town.

Many good responses here. Hopefully many have resonated with you and your situation.... I still struggle w guilt at times after putting mom in a nursing home and getting ready to fulfill my retirement dream moving 700 miles from here to live at the beach... The last year with her nearly killed me!! So.....I would recommend you prepare your script in advance considering what words you will use. You could say something like.. "Im not okay wifh that"...."My therapist advises against it" "The house is too small" "My husband is not on board". Etc. Hugs to you.

My mom is 90. I know she is slipping. But she seems to keep most things straight. Her main problem is that she is lonely. She lives alone and has no friends or interests. We have all tried to get her involved with the senior center, church, gardening, reading, puzzles, letter writing, etc. Every attempt is met with immediate dismissal or sabotage. I once planted flowers for her. Two weeks later she went out and pulled them up. She said it was too much to care for. Likewise with any kind of distraction that we have tried to install. Bird feeders, hanging plants, potted tomatoes, cable TV, even long distance phone service.so she could call friends and relatives. She will not have any of it. But she continually complains and literally cries and sobs that she is lonely. The only solution is to come and live with me. I am her only solution to everything and she will not accept less. It is very hard to watch your mom cry and say I never though my children would abandon me.

You don't state your mother's age......but dementia could be creeping in, too. The old saw "as people age, they become more themselves" is often an overly-simplistic brush-off.

My mom was not toxic and beligerent like your mom. But a world-class control freak. The passive-aggressive variety. Mom became increasingly rigid and unreasonable in her later years. I was convinced there was no dementia. Because mom always knew day/president/people/when bills were due, etc.

Ha. Mom's autopsy told a different story. The story of a woman who should have been under the care of a neurologist. Not the fruitless efforts of a frazzled adult daughter (50-miles round trip), a clueless eldery sister and perplexed neighbors. Altho I am eternally grateful to those neighbors. An accident of geography turned into a kindness I can only hope to repay.

Keep your home as your sanctuary from mom's chaos and demands. Defend this boundary as if your life depends on it. Because it does.

Whatever mom's deal is, it will only get worse. Mom should be in her own space (closer to you, perhaps) with outside caregivers or in professional care. Do not entertain any other options.

Yes, mom will make stupid decisions. She will make you look bad. Sometimes on purpose. Sometimes by default. It's the reality of middle age, if your parent(s) are alive. (Yes.....TV and AARP depicts middle age as carefree empty-nesters riding bikes along a harbourfront. Those actors are paid well.)

The next XX years will suck no matter what. Draw a line literally and figuartively around your home and your husband. Mom has no claim on either of them. And they will outlast mom -- but only if you make sure of it.

onetoughcookie, I'm so glad you didn't run to fetch her meds!

Sounds like your bil isn't going to agree to continue to do her bidding, so it's time for a more workable solution for her neediness.

onetoughcookie: I completely agree with GA's evaluation of the situation:

"You will not convince her that your home is not an option, so the only way to deal with it is to say "No!. I could not possibly do that!" or words to that effect, then walk away. Don't stay and argue with her. Possibly even send it to her in a note or email and also tell her that the subject is closed as far as you are concerned and you will not discuss it any further and stick to that."

Say "no" and walk away. Say "no" in an email or letter if you can't face her. But do not listen to her "pleas" (in quotes b/c they are the rantings of a crazy person). Don't listen to her and just WALK AWAY. Put your hands over your ears and sing "la la la la la la!" if you have to, until you're out of earshot. Do not answer the phone (if you don't have Call Display, now would be a good time to get it). If she writes or emails back, DON'T READ IT. Tell your sibling to do this too.

You have to be supportive, so find a place where she will be well cared for (and I was going to add "happy" but that isn't going to happen -- and wouldn't if she were at your place, either).

Send her flowers once a month. (If she doesn't like them, she can toss them, but you will at least know that you have her best interests at heart -- and that's enough -- keep your best interests at heart too).

I am SO sorry that you are going thru' this. Be strong!!

Stick to your boundaries and their consequences. In the process keep your focus on your own health and well-being plus take no prisoners in standing firm.

No, don't let her move in with you. You have already proven it just by posting to us.

Good for you. You did not go. Good suggestions about the meds and the pharmacy. Set limits on how many trips you will make for what. If once a week or once every two weeks stress that you will not go in between so everything better be on the list. You may be able to find someone local to her who would make small trips, or a cab company who would pick up and deliver meds - at her cost. This is sheer her jerking you around and she will do it as long as you let her. Her choice if she doesn't want to comply - then she does without or figures something out on her own. You don't drive 50 miles for milk. She can manage without until your next trip. Set your schedule to what you are willing to do, and if she forgets then she does without and you mention to her that she may need a mini mental exam as her memory seems to be slipping.

Keep saying No. You did good!!!!

cookie, I totally agree with what golden has written - her words describes my experience as well. My sister and I are currently dealing with this, as our mother is on a mission to move from NH back to my sister's home. It's a daily thing for us, in nearly every phone call. We do what Golden mentions - we state that that is not possible and we won't be discussing it. No explanations, no wordiness - just change the subject. You have to develop an armadillo shell that wards off the nastiness, the increased anger and all attempts from other parties (relatives) to guilt you into this.
Can you set up her meds with a pharmacy where you can manage her prescriptions and have it set to pay with her credit card? We did that for my FIL - when the script is ready for pickup, anyone in the family can get it for him and it's charged to his card.

I get the "tough cookie" for your mom - my mom's theme is song is "My Way".... yes, for real.

Well, i did not go to my moms for her medicine. She called my Brother in law and had him promise to get them tomorrow. He is super pissed. He has his own substantial caregiving responsibilities for his mother. He has told her he cannot do things for her. She doesn't care. She just keeps using him...and me....and my husband....and my sibling....and whoever she can find. Her excuse always starts out the same way - "well it's just....". Well it's just my medicine, well it's just milk, well it's just a doctors appointment. And on and on and on. She wants what she wants when she wants it.

Choose to not be a doormat.
"I'm sorry, I cannot do that" NO Explanation.
the words i had to say to my fathers (constant) demands.
one time I even sat on the ground after saying it and didnt move until he gave up.
any therapist will tell you , Unlike other mental diseases, there is NO dealing with a narcissist... there is no cure and they will Never see your side- only their own.

Im with Churchmouse. Let her figure it out for herself if she's "Independent" have her call a cab or a neighbor. Send a cab to the pharmacy to do the pick up. Call a neighbor yourself and ask a one time favor. Then put the scripts on mail order.

The trial will never go in your favor and will likely ended in a crisis where she's taken to a hospital and discharged 3 days later and you are scrambling for care for her
Find a reasonable continuing care facility that will allow her to age in place and where you won't have to drive 50 miles to visit - this doesn't mean you neglect her or are not involved in her care
In the meantime, see if you can have her meds either on auto refill or delivered by Mail - to you if necessary

The big risk with a "trial period" is what is your recourse if the trial fails for you and your husband, but your mom doesn't want to move out. You can set all sorts of rules and boundaries, but there's no enforcement ability with an adult (especially a parent who will be vexed at being told what to do by her child). With our kids, we could ground them or take away privileges.And if your husband isn't on board, then you're starting out with a huge problem. Often husbands have a clarity about things that their wives lack, because the wives are too enmeshed in the relationship. There's no halfway in this situation - you either maintain the boundary and protect your home sanctuary, or you are all in (possibly for years).

You could get with your husband and make a list of 'boundaries' (the things that you call stubborn, difficult....) Then let her know if she abides by the boundries you'll try it for 60 to 90 days. She probably won't like it and be willing to go to a retirement community. This is no different than rules you had to abide by as a child and you are free to communicate the house rules. Your house not her house. If she doesn't agree, doesn't abide, then all of the above comments are right but this way YOU will have closure on this subject.

It sounds like it will be something that you will regret. My suggestion would be to take a little time to look into assisted living, or a seniors only apartment building nearby you. Can your mom afford to pay for either of those lifestyles by herself? If not, perhaps you and your siblings could help financially. As well, as you could visit her often. It doesn't sound as if the relationship with you mum is the best. Two women in the same kitchen isn't good even under the best of conditions. If your marriage is good, but your husband is so adamant about her not moving in, you may be jeopardizing your relationship with your husband. Perhaps he could take a turn and visit her on a regular basis, if she does move into AL or a seniors only apartment.

Stop allowing her to use you as a doormat! Do you allow others to treat you in such a disrespectful manner? You are an adult and is allowed to establish boundaries and say no. Take a one month sabbatical from your mother and let her rely on herself to find ways to manage her life.

I would bring this problem up at the pharmacy when you pick up the prescription, they must have other customers who don't drive or unable to visit in person.

What's stopping her calling a cab and going to the pharmacy herself? Call her bluff. If they're that crucial she can go and get them.

If your mother has been with you for 2+ weeks, then you've just had your trial period of her living in your house. So how did it go?

I don't know what to suggest about the med refill emergency she's manipulated you into handling. I'll be anxious to see what the other more experienced folks suggest!

Here is a perfect example in real time:
Mom has been at my house for two plus weeks. She just left 18 hours ago. I drove her home after work. She called me today and said she needs four prescriptions refilled. She only has 1 pill left. I WAS JUST THERE LAST NIGHT!!!!! She knows I can't call 911 for this. And she needs these medicines. So what do I do? She can't drive, and pharmacy does not have delivery. I had a text message system set up to let me know when her prescriptions were due but she go that completely screwed up by not buying the medicine when it was ready and refusing to pay for it. She would say she had "extra" pills and didn't need it or it was too expensive. So anyway, what do I do tonight? She needs medicine. So another two hours in the car and another going to the pharmacy, not to mention the gas and the wear and tear on my car and my nerves!!!!!

Cookie - if ever there was a Master Manipulator it was my mother. Mom passed away about two weeks ago and I can still say that without guilt or feeling bad because it's the straight, honest truth. I had a life time of it. I have two older brothers - one has had next to no contact with her for years and the other was her golden child so he made excuses for her. I didn't really get it for a loooong time - I knew she was stubborn and sometimes cold but I didn't see the depth of the manipulations until six years ago when both my parents had a health crisis at the same time, had to sell their house of 50 years and move into IL. We were able to hire a full time caregiver for my dad - mom recovered and went back to her life - with me doing all the details dad use to do - which was almost everything. Daddy passed after two years, mom began to show signs of dementia, I became official DPOA and life as I knew it was offically over. I could go on and on about all the crap I had to deal with but I'll cut to my point - no matter what my mom pulled I was able to stand firm on one point - mom was NEVER, EVER, moving in with me, hubby and my adult disabled son, NEVER. If I hadn't have had my own home - my sanctuary to retreat into I would have lost my mind - and probably my family. The ringing telephone was intrusion enough - but I could choose to just not pick up. When they are in your home 24/7 you don't have the choice not to "pick up". I don't know what to say to you to make you realize it's okay to save yourself - and your own family. But you just have to do it - if you took her in and then something awful happened to you - God forbid - but is that how you will have wanted to spend your last bit of time on this earth - or do you and your husband - your children, deserve better?

"I have tried everything. Ignoring, changing the subject, confronting it head on, yelling, whispering, talking logically and calmly, enlisting helpers, creating lists, giving her aids, calendars, timers. She finds a way to dismiss EVERYTHING and EVERY ASSISTANCE. BECAUSE SHE WANTS HER WAY!!!! And that is to live with me in my home. Has anyone out there dealt with a person this stubborn and insistent? I mean, she is really one tough cookie."

Yes I have dealt with that and I am one tough cookie too, as are my narc mother and sister. I totally understand trying everything and that your mum erodes your boundaries all the time, She built the fear, guilt and obligations buttons in you and she knows how to press them. Remember you will never change her. You will not convince her that your home is not an option, so the only way to deal with it is to say "No!. I could not possibly do that!" or words to that effect, then walk away. Don't stay and argue with her. Possibly even send it to her in a note or email and also tell her that the subject is closed as far as you are concerned and you will not discuss it any further and stick to that. If she brings it up walk away, hang up or delete the email. You can do it. Many here have learned to. I know it feels scary at first, but the more you do it, the easier it gets.

Stop trying to change her. You list things that you have done to "help" her or change her mind ".I have tried everything. Ignoring, changing the subject, confronting it head on, yelling, whispering, talking logically and calmly, enlisting helpers, creating lists, giving her aids, calendars, timers. She finds a way to dismiss EVERYTHING and EVERY ASSISTANCE. BECAUSE SHE WANTS HER WAY!!!!"

It doesn't work!!!!! Yes, she wants her way but she cannot have her way in this situation or in all situations. She is a typical narcissist and she will continue to be like this. Nothing you do is going to change her. All you can do is change yourself and your responses to her to protect yourself and your marriage more.

Get over the guilt of saying "No". This is called false guilt. You are doing nothing wrong by saying no to her. Real guilt is what you feel when you have done something wrong. False guilt is what you feel when you don't meet the (unrealistic) expectations of others who are trying to manipulate you. The sky will not fall in when you say no. She will be angry - what's new. Just get out of the way when she explodes. She will always find something to be angry about as she uses her anger to manipulate you. For a narc it is like a game. "How far can I push this person around?" often much more important to them than the issue at hand. She wants to win - whatever the issue, the point is that she wants to win.

I know about boundaries being pushed and it is exhausting as you are kept in this crazy dance of reinforcing, and reinventing boundaries. I haven't seen much about that in the literature on boundaries, After a while I came to feel the exhaustion of mother continually pushing my boundaries and knew the next step was reducing contact, which I did. How often do you have contact with your mother in a week, a month? As long as her needs - food, shelter, medical acre finances looked after are met,you do not have to visit or talk to her and meet her sick demands. In fact, you are enabling her when you do. You do not have to care for her hands on and, in cases like yours it is recommended that you care give at arm's length for your own protection. Get off the merry-go-round! Find something better to do with your time and energy. Apparently you are spending a lot of it on her sick ways and it is doing you no good. I visit mother a few times a year - that's it. I stopped answering phone calls when she became very abusive, She is well cared for, but not by me and engages in her games with the staff of her facility who are trained to do this, rather than with me.

Today take some steps in a healthier direction. If you talk to her daily, cut it back to 3 x a week, and later cut it back more if she is still abusive and the conversations upset you. If you visit her 2x a week cut it back to once a week and then less often. If you deliver groceries, do just that and then leave, engaging in no more conversation than about the weather. You get the idea. Do not indulge her tantrums and willfulness. You would not take this from anyone else, I hope and don't take it from her.

Learn about distancing and detachment from people. Research it in the internet. Look up how to deal with a narcissistic parent and apply these things to your life and your quality of life will improve.

Keep coming back - we will reinforce your healthy actions and - do something good for you today -soon!!! Blessings

onetoughcookie's daughter :) , something I know that many of us need to remind ourselves is that we are just as important as our parents. They are no longer gods to us and they don't rule our roost. If you can picture yourself walking alongside her and leading her a different direction, it may help. She might try to bully you. She might say that she wants to live with you and you owe it to her. If you're beside her, you can say that she can't live with you, but you know a place that is nearby, so it would be easier to visit. That way you're not being confrontational, but you're still saying no.

Or you could even make it easier. Tell her that husband said no, and that he swore he would go crazy like "The Shining" if your mother moved in. Tell her he's been saying redrum over and over. She may not ever like your husband again, but maybe he wouldn't think that so bad. :D Just playing here to lighten the situation.

Something we all need to remember -- myself majorly included -- is that no one has any power over us unless we give it to them. She cannot move in if you and your husband say no. I know she would drive you crazy. I would try to steer her toward a better situation. And when she gets in your face, just recognize it is a bullying tactic. (If she bullies you before she is even with you, imagine what she'd do after she got her feet firmly planted.)

When you say no you don't really mean it. That's what is keeping this going on. Set boundaries that you are willing to enforce. Have an action plan. Tell her you are only coming to her house once a month or whatever frequency you choose. If she has an emergency she should call 911. If she calls you for nonsense you will block her calls. Quit playing games. You have it arranged so that if she demands enough you give in. Take back your power. If she wants your help it will be done on your terms. You are a volunteer not a personal slave. If she knows where she can get better help than what you offer, tell her she should go for it.
You have been conditioned to feel guilty no matter what you do. Make a plan of action and stick with it. If she convinces you that there is an emergency then you call 911. If that seems excessive then it's probably not an emergency. Let her see that it won't be you that comes when she pitches a fit. Thank goodness she didn't want you to add an addition to your home.
Holding the boundary is like developing a muscle. You do it once and it's easier the next time. Get your brother to hold the same line so she doesn't play one of you against the other. Get a notebook. Each time she calls write down what she wants. If it is an emergency. Call 911. If it isn't tell her you will take care of it on your next scheduled visit OR just say no. Or ask her what is she going to do about the problem. Hand it back to her. Good luck.

Listen to your therapist, then. He/she should be helping you deal with the guilt and manipulation. (Are they? Sounds from your posts here as if you still seem to think you are going to give your mother a trial run living in your home.)

My therapist says I should not consider taking my mom in AT ALL. I am just trying to deal with the guilt and manipulation. I struggle with holding the boundaries not setting them. And my mom is constantly testing the boundaries.

It sounds to me as though your mom, in addition to being stubborn and difficult, is a narcissist. Narcissistic people have little empathy for others. She sees the situation from only one point of view--her own. She wants what she wants, and that's that. Moving her in with you won't put an end to her demands. Nothing will please her. Some possibilities: Your home will be too hot to suit her--or too cold. The food will be unappetizing. You don't include her in your social activities. Far better for her to remain fifty miles away from you, even if you continually have to run back and forth to tend to her needs, than to have her living in your home.