Unable to communicate without an argument. Is this normal behavior for someone his age?

Nope. Not normal behavior IF he hasn't been this way his whole life.

Do you have power of attorney or are you on HIPAA forms so that you can talk to the social worker/discharge planner at the hospital?

Maybe he is telling them that you will care for him, and that's why they are discharging him.

Or maybe he is competent to make his own bad choices and there's nothing you can do.

I think it's woth a call to the hospital to tell them that you work full time and will not be providing care for him. Period. End of story. It might change their discharge plans. Or not.

In any event, take a giant step back and allow him to be "independent". The sooner you stop enabling the charade, the sooner he will get help.

Nothing normal about it. But it’s amazing how low the bar is for being considered competent and therefore able to make ones own decisions. Talk to his doctor and the hospital social worker, they may not talk back if there’s no POA or HIPPA clearance, but they can just listen and be fully informed on his situation. When you’ve done that, you’ve done all you should and can for now. Events will happen that will force change, it’s just not fund waiting on it.

It sounds as if dad keeps you in the dark about being able to step in and care for him. Have a talk with Social Services at the hospital and let them know the lay of the land. If dad doesn't allow you to talk to the dr and get his medical information and if the hospital allows him to go ahead and go home on his own, then all you can really do is wait for the other shoe to drop. I will tell you that there was one time dad went to er after falling and cutting his head - something happened and I couldn't get over to get him home; the hospital sent him back to AL - not in an ambulance - but another medical transportation that cost him $50. He may be able to get home in an ambulance but it will cost more than $50.

Now if this is how your father has always been, then yep it is normal FOR him. If he hasn't always been this way then he may need to have his dr evaluate him for UTI or something else. Lets face it some people are very controlling and private. I was REALLY surprised when my father started telling me about his and mom's finances, both appointed me POA and allowed me to step in and take care of their business and medical.

Good luck with your father.

This man is holding onto his independence with all his might. With a vice like grip.

Personality, brain changes, life experiences will shape us all differently in old age. IMHO tenacity has a lot to do with it.

My tenacity scale of 1-10 🙃

1: Given up. Sitting there like a well used, well padded armchair. Needing or expecting family or others to provide & do everything...

10: Captain sinking with his ship. His way or no way! Living his way despite no longer being able to shop, cook, clean, wash or even eat. Rotting away into the debris of a rotting house.

Most folk who can reason, would fall somewhere between the extremes. Keeping their independence until they realise they need to accept help & accept life changes. Flexible folk may accept change quicker. Rigid/ stubborn folk longer. Denial? Much longer.

Lack of reason, however may mean awaiting a crises to have change forced upon them.

MyAgingFather, I am sorry I do not have an easy solution for you 🙁. Looking at the situation is a good place to start though. Shall I score your Dad an 8??

Is it "normal behavior"? No matter what age, it's only "normal" if this is how the person was all along. Sure, a person can become more curmudgeonly as they age, but based only on what you've provided, it's more than just being grumpy.

"He's going to die alone if he doesn't allow me to step in and intervene."

Based on all that you've reported, this is a possibility. Also based on what you've said, there could be several issues going on, but the one that floats to the top is cognitive decline. This includes being unable to take care of himself, eat properly, manage his bills and more than likely manage his diabetes. Dementia does predispose him to cognitive issues, aka dementia. UTIs can bring out abrupt personality and other issues, but this has been ongoing for a while now, so it's more likely cognitive.

Trying to reason with him isn't working. If it's some kind of dementia, you're not going to get him to see his failings. In his mind, he's younger and quite capable. Suggesting otherwise is inviting arguments! I almost chuckled about the ambulance - my mother would get UTIs and know it, but rather than drive herself during daytime hours, she'd wait until night and call for an ambulance. I don't know of any ambulance "service" that takes anyone home, that's not what they provide. She'd call my YB for a ride home. When I'd try to point out that it was wrong using the ambulance, as it takes the service away from someone who truly needs it, her answer was that her insurance covers it (they did, but that's beside the point!) No amount of reasoning would work with her.

Assumption here is there are no POAs in place. Given his current state of mind and recent behavior, it isn't likely he would agree to appoint you as his POA. If you want to provide some care and oversight, it will require guardianship. That takes time and money (which HIS assets should pay for.) In the meantime, he is already in the hospital. Without POAs, the doctors can't discuss his medical condition with you, but YOU can provide some insight to them and suggest the doctor do some cognitive testing. Be sure to point out everything to them:

*Inability to properly feed himself
*Inability to care for himself
*Inability to manage his finances
*Probably unable to manage his diabetes

Also stress EMPHATICALLY that he is NOT willing to allow you to assist with any of this. When they plan discharge, they NEED to know that he refuses your help and if they arrange in-home assistance for him, he is likely to dismiss or refuse them once he's home. He will very likely tell them that he can manage, or that you will assist him or agree to in-home assistance, just to get out.

If you plan to pursue guardianship, let them know that and ask that they provide assistance and time so you can get this in place. There are ways to get this expedited, in emergency situations, so it is crucial that you get the medical staff on board to assist by testing him and holding him longer, if possible. They can't provide medical info to you, but the court system can gain access to that, and will order testing, to review everything.

Meanwhile, enlist the help of an EC attorney. They can help facilitate and expedite guardianship and also assist in coordinating VA benefits (Medicaid too, if he needs it.) While working on getting legal help, ask the landlord to give you a little time to get this resolved. Assure him that you'll see to it that he gets paid all the back rent from your dad (NEVER offer to make the payments yourself!) Perhaps you could ask him to document how far behind he is on rent payment - that would help with the legal aspects to demonstrate he needs oversight.

While juggling all this, don't try to discuss any of it with him. It's difficult, but if/when you see/visit with him, stay off all the care and financial topics. That's for you to work out through the atty and the court system. You won't be able to reason with him, just be there for him. Let the legal handle it.

I am so sorry that you are in this situation. It’s hard. It hurts when someone is continually combative, especially when you are trying to help them.

My dad was a sweetheart. Mom could be contrary at times. My brother expected me to do EVERYTHING for him. You know when it stopped? When I stopped doing everything for him.

Yeah, it got ugly, but I was losing my mind. I had to make myself a priority. I was already caring for my mom. I couldn’t stretch myself any further. You sound like you are at the end of your rope.

My brother was not going to change. I doubt that your dad will, not on his own anyway. So, you’re going to have to help him by not being available and as sad as it is, let him figure it out. He will. Or he will reach out to someone who will help him. He will be better off in the end and so will you.

My brother ended up reaching out to someone that got him into a wonderful ‘end of life’ hospice house. We reconnected and made peace with one another. He was sorry for expecting so much from me. I completely forgave him. He died peacefully. Allow your dad enough time alone to process his behavior.

Wishing you peace during this challenging time in your life.

Step away. Your father has made his choices and NOTHING you can do or say will change that.

You said he is a retired veteran ? I don’t know if there are resources for veterans like making sure his rent is paid ? He might have beginning of dementia. I work with patients and sometimes the old ones are so mean and they say whatever comes to mind. No filter. Sometimes it’s bc they have dementia and sometimes it’s just they lived so long and they feel miserable so they just don’t care anymore. Sounds like you are being supportive but there is only so much you can do

So sorry you are going through this. My sister is the patient, she is 80, has dementia and is bipolar. It took a hospital stay 3 years ago and social services finally put it on her discharge papers that she cannot live alone. She didn’t agree. Took another year, repeat visits from social services, and I even called the police for a wellness check to get her willing to go into an assisted living. I live 9 hours away. Besides the VA, try senior services and/or Alzheimer’s association for additional information and assistance. I wish you well.

You are still the child and your Dad is still the parent.

Stop trying to Boss him around, it's his life and let him live it any way he wants, even tho he may be making total opposite decisions that you'd be making.

You can find out all the help for him and have it available whenever your Dad decides to use it.

In the meantime, keep seeing your Dad and stay out of his business unless he asks.

Yall will have a much nicer visit.

If he dies sooner, then he'll die a happier man doing whatever his way.

You should just let your Dad know that you love him and are there for him.

Contact the VA in phildelphia for Aid and Attendance aswell as looking it up on aging care.Normally you can hire a VA lawyer but in my case I found out about it
at Dads age of 95...as my brother was his sole caretaker and i applied for a pension and the operator at the VA mentioned the A&A....i was so thankful you cannot imagine as we simply never applied for any aid in this family.It resulted in Dads and brother getting awarded a pension and A&A we qualifed but u must have Discharge papers,WW2 vet in Dads case.as well as Medical Records and they will
determine his needs..for level of A&A...Dad had all his ducks in a row but we had failed to find out or the rehab never mentions this info. why? so he had a fall and needed care for a concusion,partially blind,needs level meaning movement from his bed washing...up diapers etc..we would have qualifed for the highest level but as i did the paperwork having obtained his med recrds, and did not go to a Doc to list his current needs which is something i regret but they did all the work as well as go to your local va office pronto and readup on the internet its all there..youcan get lot of help so you dont need a NH...however after brother his caretaker died unexpectedly i place Dad in NH where he lived for another 4 mos
I had 2 deaths in four mos!....could have hired inhome help was afraid dad would fall if got up during the nite to relieve himself...i went to the NH everyday..good after brothers sudden death..dad had somewhat dementia..i did not like the NH experience frankly...they took dads 2000 half soc other half A&A money which was 900....so Medicaid app took 2 mos alot of trouble for high price of home.
Problem was age of dad 97 he did not understand call bell he forgot to drink water i arrived at different time one day on purpose food was unchewable..so i started making smoothies in his room and taking him out in his VA custom made wheel chair...in the sun...if i could have handled the visitors at home whith custom bed i would have but frankly they dont do that much..meaning the caretaker doesnt cook,clean,shop food,they just i guess take him to bath,give drugs..etc i did much more with NH but there were lapses..which is why i went everyday...to see what costs 8000.00 per mo. what an eyeful!!!!!!!thats another story on another day but the VAwill help if u start gettting the paperwork good luck....we really appreciated the 900 per mo. my parents ran their own rest for forty yrs and owned their home social was low so there are qualifications ...

Are you in any way financially tied to his decisions? I wish I could go back and not make the mistake I did.
don’t argue with him, You are the enemy and he doesn’t want your help, focus on your life. You are prob right he will die alone he has that choice.
he wants you to go away.

Whew! MyAgingFather, you have a lot on your plate. Unless your Dad is deemed medically incompetent and you have a POA in place (which sounds improbable), there is little you can do until circumstances present themselves. Elderly folks want to stay in their homes until they die. Who wouldn't? If he is of sound mind and just curmudgeonly, there is nothing you can do. If he should be admitted to the hospital, your obligation is to speak to his doctor and the hospital social worker (discharge planner) to facilitate his safety. I know everyone talks about HIPAA restrictions, but in my experience (caregiving for hospitalized immediate family relatives), no health care provider EVER refused to speak with me. Hospital personnel don't want to/can't discharge patients to unsafe conditions (unless a patient just leaves and walks out). I doubt your Dad can do that.

If he is not paying his rent at independent living, sh** will hit the fan eventually there, too. Don't pay his bills or enable him. He's been in the hospital 40 times over the last few years because his diabetes is most likely out of control because he's not eating properly or adjusting his meds. Again, there is little you can do. Some elderly parents worry, worry, worry about dying. Then there's others who are angry about getting older, their limitations and lack of friends because everyone their age they know are dying. Then some elderly are getting some dementia or a combination of everything I just mentioned. My dear departed MIL told me several times, "Old age ain't for sissies. It's hard to die." Sometime all they want is someone to LISTEN.

Perhaps you could visit Dad and just sit down with "no arguments" and just talk. Ask him what he wants for the rest of his life. Calmly (and I KNOW that's hard, trust me) give him your suggestions to improve his situation. If HE starts to argue, say "Dad, you're an adult and I respect your wishes, but unless your living conditions change and you allow others to help you now, you will lose control and others will be making decisions for you and they may not be in line with your wishes." It's hard to get old and accept help from others. Your Dad has a wonderful daughter who wants to help but he is fiercely resisting. Tell him you love him and then ask him what he wants. If he says, "I just want to be left alone", then unfortunately that's his choice. Tell him you will call every few days to check in. It's HARD to accept someone who doesn't want what's in their best interest. Don't feel guilty. You're doing your best. Your mental/physical health comes first. You can't help someone if they don't want to help themselves.

While he is in the hospital, talk to his doctor about what you are experiencing. Your dad may suffer from dementia with anosognosia, the inability to acknowledge or understand his health and life issues. If they do detect these problems and that he is not mentally capable, then social services can help you with placement into an appropriate residential facility.

The hardest thing in the world is to stop trying to help an ailing parent who adamantly doesn't want your help. Even if you know 100% that help is needed.

But he is communicating his wishes with you, loud and clear. As long as there's no guardianship/conservatorship, there's little you can do with him directly. You can try to intervene on his behalf behind his back, which it sounds you've been doing. But you cannot force him to accept help.

Now it's time to let go what you can't control (him); figure out the few things you can do to help, and let the rest go as gracefully as you can. As wrong as you feel his decisions are, they're still his decisions. If his resistance leads to his death - again, that's his choice.

The reason it's so terribly difficult is deep down you sense that he will die sooner than he would otherwise. A loved one's death is terribly painful to contemplate, and a situation like this makes it seem so real somehow.

Be kind to yourself - it's a type of grieving to let go of helping someone who doesn't want it.

My father was a lawyer so you can imagine the battle I had on my hands. So I let nature take its course. And when there was no longer any choice, I stepped in and took over. I did what I could before hand like I said, but when he fell and broke his hip and could no longer take care of my mother or himself, I did what I needed to do. Thankfully then he realized that in their beat interest, there was no choice so I got POAs from both of them and put everything they had in a irrevocabile trust with me as trustee (to also protect them from my brother).

Your father is like millions of other stubborn elderly people who have and don't have dementia.
None want to leave their homes to go into a facility and that's understandable.
Stop suggesting he move to a nursing facility. That talk is only going to make him more stubborn and ornery. He will likely shut down and stop talking to you altogether. Many elderly people think the only "help" is going to be a nursing home. That's why they refuse to be open-minded and allow any outside help. Even from family.
You had to put some distance between you and your father. That's also understandable. Maybe you need to put a little bit more for a while.
Sometimes elderly people need a bit of tough love to get them to accept that they need help and they become more agreeable to the idea.
It will be very hard for you to step back, but it's what must be done.
Contact the Department of Social Services in the area your father lives in. Call Adult Protective Services (APS) too and have them make a visit. Your father's stubbornness will very likely lessen when these people show up. They will make it clear to him that he is a high-risk adult and that they have the power and authority to put him in a nursing home if he refuses to accept outside help.
I've known so many families who had to do exactly this with their stubborn elderly who were in denial about still being totally independent and it worked. If it didn't I would not have been working for these people in their homes. They would have been put away in nursing homes.
Please give these two agencies a call for both of your sakes.

As so many have already said here, your father has made up his mind and you can't change it. So stop trying. As hard as that may be.
However, if you call or visit and absolutely do not discuss his health or living situation, he will not have to be defensive. Talk about a book or movie, go out to see a movie, look through photo albums. Have a stress-free conversation about anything else but him! Tell him about your day, adventure, kids, job. Reminisce about family vacations as a kid, or his work career, play "if I won the lottery this is how I'd spend it".
If he realizes you can have pleasant conversations he will relax when you contact him, and not feel you are the bossy kid. This can help both if you resume your relationship as a calm, friendly one. It's not easy! But it will make it easier to have the difficult conversations later.
Best of luck to you both.

Not sure how to answer but maybe let him know that IF he gets behind on his rent, that they could kick him out (after giving the appropriate notice) and that he would then have to go into a NH where he will have more people around him his own age and where he will get good meals, have his clothes taken care of, all of his meds taken care of etc. Other than letting the hospital know that he has no one to take care of him at home, they "might" just try to find him a space at a nursing place. I haven't had that problem cross my path. I was my fathers POA and when he fell the last time and my mother could no longer handle him, i let them know at the hospital he could not go home. We got him into the facility that we had just recently checked out. Now 7 years later our mother is in the same NH as she had some major issues in April and she decided it was time to go into the NH. So I was grateful that I didn't have any arguments either way. IF you are NOT the POA I don't think there is much you can do other than finding a way to get guardianship or something. check with office of aging, other than that it might just have to wait until "unfortunately" something bad happens, then he can go into NH. I sure wish you luck.

Notify Aging and protective services. Notify his primary care provider. Do this in writing and save your copies. Advise them about his self care issues and that he has been unable to manage paying his bills. Advise that he adamantly refuses your help. Emphasize that he is soon going to be homeless because he has not paid for his independence living situation, and that in your 0pinion he needs to be assessed for an appropriate level of care. Good luck with all of this. Also I found writing my dad notes (not about what I suggested above) helped give him time to process the information.

If someone comes in to evaluate him, and he tries to blame you - deny, deny, deny! He needs you on his side, even if you ARE the one who asked for their help.

Is there a Veterans' facility he could go to to live? Or to get care?

I'm in the same boat. Have a caveman for a dad :)
I cannot broach any topic with him without it spiraling off into the unknown.
I have both him and my mother in my home and I am taking care of them.
Anytime I have any need to communicate with him, it is impossible.
I speak too loud, I don't speak loud enough, he can't hear me, doesn't understand what I'm talking about, and he changes the topic, and is aggressive, overriding me and spouts nonsense that has nothing to do with anything. It feels like I speak a different language. It is exhausting.
I have to now talk to them about moving them into assisted living, because I can not do it anymore.

You don't live with him? Give yourself some distance, see him less.
One thing I've learned is "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".

I try and try with them but they are set in their ways and they want to live the way they want. Which I can see logic in that. They are 88 years old, I do not force them to do anything they don't want. But they are not a danger to themselves, because they are with me who is watching out for them and taking care of them.
Unfortunately that does not even make them happy.

Have you ever let him be without seeing him, like say for 1 week? Maybe you need to do that, because right now you are his safety net and he gets to behave however he likes, knowing you will be there to deal with his mess.

Imho, your father is akin to many other elders who refuse care EVEN when it's of an urgent nature. His mindset of thinking EMS are taxi cabs is erroneous. As he is in arrears on his rent, this is an EMERGENCY.

Father was like this growing up. Love to argue and yell at me and my Mom. Well, I stopped coming by and my Mom left after 62 years. He died alone. I am no-ones punching bag. Or, you reap what you sow,

POA, you can get the papers together for him by contacting a lawyer who does those and have him sign them and when he goes in the hospital and can't make decisions you can.
Let him know that the POA can help him pay his bills, by being on his financial information bank account etc. If he is a veteran call the VA and ask if you can be his fiduciary and all his funds will be in your name and you as the POA can make sure his room and board is taken care of and personal needs provided you are approved by them to be his POA. Also they can take care of his medical care. If he is social security that can be taken care of by him. Call meidicare/medicaid and see if a person/social worker is appointed to take his case and see what they can do to help him.
He is no doubt proud and independent and thats ok. I am dealing with a 91 year old that when I try and help her she get's mad at me, talking mean and yelling, and she treat me like I am mistreating her. I am learning after taking care of a few older ones they all have their own personalities and it seems they treat the one who cares for them the most and uses their valuable time to help them, they treat that one the worst But I do understand that they are just fighting to live and keeping track of their independence anyone that will take it they are ok with it. However there is a stoping point so that you do not get worn out because it can be taxing on the body mind and spirit.
I learned that when they are trying to make a decision and they are trying to figure it out as to what they are to decide or the way they should go, Give them time to think about it, leave the room come back and ask them, where they able to find that information or get the answer they needed If they say no, what are you talking about, just politely say to them we were trying to find out something, make a decision...I was just wondering if you got the answer or figure out what you wish to do? If they don't answer you, ask would you like for me to help you with that.
Otherwise I would politely acknowledge that they are sick or not able to do the things they would llike to do, however it doesn't make things better when you yell at me or talk unkind to me. Can we both work on this. Otherwise in the long run you will be wore out and they will still be the same and there will neebut that's life.
I hope things work out for you...Hang in there get some help..

Is it probable that a gentleman who won't accept a lift from his daughter home from hospital is going to agree to give her power of attorney?

MAF, I'm going to borrow a line from a book called "The House of God" - "the *patient* is the one with the disease." In your case, your *father* is the one who desperately needs help. You are the one sitting on the sidelines and watching through your fingers with your heart in your mouth.

But the point is that these problems are his, and not yours. You're not behind with your rent, or adopting a devil-may-care attitude to running up medical bills. Take deep breaths and keep in mind that YOU are fine.

You have offered help, practical and managerial, and he has told you to get lost. Why?

It isn't as simple as pride, it certainly won't be anything personal, there may be an element of not seeing you as someone to take responsibility because you're his little girl but it won't be that simple either. He argues with you whenever you touch on his health or welfare because he doesn't want there to be anything wrong, and you keep shoving it in his face - so he pushes back and gets narky about it.

Talk to him about something, anything else. Be really self-disciplined about this for the rest of July, say (unless there is a real emergency, of course). Reset your communications with him. If he gives an inch, for example by mentioning a financial or health issue, don't take a mile; instead, ask open questions about what is worrying him and what he would like to do.

Eventually along will come the letter or the incident which he cannot ignore or dodge. If you see it coming, you can say the equivalent of "oi. Trouble ahead. What would you like to do about this?" but you probably won't get the chance. It's okay. Everything is solvable one way or the other in the end; meanwhile, stop trying to make the horse drink the water.

I totally understand. I am In a similar situation. I do believe elders go through a period of mourning. They become to realize that their life is coming to a close. They are now relying on others to live out their remaining years. On top of everything their mind and body is changing. They are having trouble remembering everything and managing life and dignity is that much harder. There is no exact science or for that fact Life: The Directions book. Possible Solutions are: 1.)Asking his Primary Care Doctor for help. 2.) Start asking about Power of Attorney or Medical Power of Attorney. 3.) Get family, extended and immediate ,on your side. 4.) There are many services through the states and counties and cities that can help. 5.) If you are really struggling, get help with a social worker that specializes in elder care. They can help both you and your dad through difficult decisions. 6.) Lastly, Research religious options. If nothing else, prayers can help too. God bless all those with aging and ailing parents!😇🧐🙏🏻🤔😀

He is old and stubborn, determined but afraid of what is coming, wants to remain in control and most likely some dementia setting in - god help you. If you are doing all that you can do and he repels every suggestion, face the fact - it is what it is. You have two options - you determine if legally you could become a guardian so YOU make the decisions and do what needs to be done or you let him lie in the bed he has made for himself. You can't fix it and so don't even try. It will destroy you. Start looking out for yourself so you don't fall in the process due to his behavior. You must get very tough and choose which option.

The answer is the VA. He is in trouble and needs their help. You may have to assist him to get that help.

He is realistically looking at moving to a VA home if he can't let you care for him. And that's better than being thrown out on the street.