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If she is POA, then her responsibility is to use your mom's money for her care unless mom established a caregiver's agreement with her. I would get more details and if necessary, contact a lawyer. By your sister comingling funds, she could be really messing up the Medicaid spend down should your mom need it in the future.
It's a bad idea for your sister to use the joint account she operates for your mother for anything except your mother's income and outgoings. Bad for your sister, I mean: it makes life far more complicated when it comes to accounting.
But how do you know that your sister is paying your sister's bills with your mother's money? For example: how do you know that your mother's SS and pension benefits comprise all of the money that is being paid into the account? Do you actually have the account statements in front of you?
I appreciate you answering my question. I know about my sister spending my moms money because I have access to the account. I can see that my moms benefits for SS and her pension being direct deposited and my sister who lives in another state paying her bills. I have looked and no other money is being deposited.
Your lawyer should be able to determine if it’s legal or not when you show him/her evidence that the money spent by the POA is not in your mother’s best interests. 🤷🏼♀️
Joint account...... That is the answer. It is a joint account.
Question... Is your mom taken care of? Who sees her the most, takes and schedules doctor appointments? dentist, hair salon, grocery shopping. sings, dances, music social?... ordering and picking up prescriptions? ARE YOU DOING THIS TOO?
Joint account is a joint account.... I am in the same boat as your sister. I take care of my LO... I take her to get her hair done, set up doctor appointments, meet the nurses when they visit, get her prescriptions filled, visit with her, talk with her, read to her...... Nobody visits her..;.. And if someone questions me... well then I will hand over the reins and the accounts and the responsibilities, and everything else that goes on with taking care of someone... I moved her close to me. A f... walk down the driveway, but hey.... who knows when the person may "forget to take the walker,,,, and falls and breaks a freaking hip" And then what? You have to visit them farther away... and tell social services that you have another place... and they don't freaking believe you because you found a place to quickly..... Well, this isn't my first walk around the block..
SO, IF YOU ARE DOING EVERYTHING YOUR SISTER IS DOING AND AS OFTEN....then you may have a question or so....BUT IF YOUR SIS IS DOING EV ERYTHING AND EVERYTHING IS FALLING IN THE LAP OF SIS.......She deserves every penny that is being spent...
Sorry, about this, I question the person who is asking this. When I see the SIGN in SHEET and it is onLY ME...... seeing her, visiting her, taking her to appointments, reading to her.......AND THIS IS NOT THE REASON I AM DOING THIS.....I love her...
SHE CALLED ME.. SHE ASKED ME!!! NOW I HAVE HER 2 MINUTES FROM ME...CLOSE BY IN CASE ANYTHING MAY HAPPEN, I AM THERE... PERIOD..
If you feel it is unfair,,, then move MOM CLOSE TO YOU... VISIT HER .. SING TO HER, TALK, TAKE HER TO APPOINTMENTS WITH YOUR SISTER... BE INVOLVED IN MOM'S DAILY ACTIVITES...
This will help your sister too.. I was so happy when my friend moved her MOM in the my MOM..... She would call me and say, I BROUGHT MILK SHAKES, !!! COME OVER, SO WE CAN DRINK MILKSHAKES AND DANCE. AND BE HAPPY!!!!!
HELP YOUR SISTER TAKE CARE OF MOM.. PERIOD.. JOIN HER... DANCE TOGETHER WITH MOM, SING TOGETHER WITH YOUR SISTER AND MOM... HAVE FUN!!! bring dinner over and eat together. tell childhood stories.
HAVE FUN... MAKE IT FUN... JOIN TOGETHER... TELL SIS YOU HAVE THE TREATS... I WILL BE AT MOM'S...EATING, SINGING, DANCING...
THIS IS NOT GOING TO LAST.. :(
SO, DO NOT THINK ABOUT THE ALL MIGHTY F...N... DOLLAR.....
TAKE CARE OF MOM..... HELP SISTER OUT.. JOIN HER.. I don't know sister or you, what your personal family style is...kids... hubby etc... but I do know taking care of geriatrics takes a lot of time...., and if she is the only one like me... then yes,... she deserves basically what she is putting into your MOTHER.
I STRONGLY SAY THIS;;;; YOUR MOM DESERVES ALL THE ATTENTION SHE GETS FROM ALL HER CHILDREN... MAY YOU ALL DO SOMETHING GOOD FOR HER, AND GIVE HER THE BEST SHE CAN GET AT THIS TIME IN HER LIFE....Obviously all you love her... so hopefully all of you are taking awesome care of her, this is too much for one person to handle....
You are not on this blog just to be on this blog...get with the program, take care of and love mom as best you can...so you can have peace at the end.... No matter what..
Deal with the monetary crap later...if you feel you need to...NOW IS THE TIME FOR MOM. TAKE CARE OF HER, SPEND TIME WITH HER, JOIN YOUR SISTER AND TAKE HER TO THE DOCTOR APPOINTMENTS HAIR APPOINTMENTS DENTIST, GROCERY STORE DEPARTMENT STORE,... ETC ETC
I remember my brother (early dementia) saw mom and me in my car... he walked up and knocked on window. I was at a red light. I told him to get in.. Took mom to get her hair done... All brother could say, is he wished he didn't knock on my car door. He didn't know what he was getting into
I appreciate you answering my question. My sister lives in another state. She was upset when I was made POA first since she’s the older one. My mom finally gave in to her and let her have it. I wouldn’t mind if she would of kept the separate accounts but the minute she had control she transferred my moms money into another account and put her name on it too! It makes me sick to watch my moms SS and pension go into the account and my sister starts paying her own bills with it. I have access to the account on line so I can see how much money goes in and how much she’s spending. My mom is in a dementia home here, so my sister doesn’t see her that often. But whenI see my moms money paying for movies, cable, phone bill and dinners in the state my sister lives that makes me sick. I always kept her money separate when I took care of her banking and only paid her bills. I never would of taken my moms money to pay my bills. When my mom was well my sister was Constantly asking my mom for money and would get mad when she didn’t get it so now she has more money than she did before and she doesn’t have to ask.
I don't get why some people are saying it's illegal. I don't see how it is. Unwise? Could be. Definitely if applying for medicaid. But illegal? I don't see how that can be.
Legally, that money belongs to both of them the second it's deposited in the account. That's what having a joint account means. It's just as much your sister's and it is your mom's. So she can pay her bills with that money. Since it's her money too at that point. Being a POA is besides the point. The joint account is what matters here. It would be a different matter if the account was only in your mom's name and your sister using her power as POA was withdrawing that money as POA from your mom's account. But she's not.
Now if medicaid comes into the picture, then it's a problem. Since it's seen as your mom gifting that money to your sister. And thus medicaid will want a clawback or will impose a penalty.
If all gifts were illegal, then I would dare say most people would be "guilty". Technically, medicaid could try to clawback a teddy bear given to a grandchild if it's within the lookback period. It's a non permissible transfer.
I think perhaps they are assuming sister is moms SS rep payee? If she is, then yes what she is doing is not allowed. The money has to be used on moms care. But honestly there isn’t enough info to determine anything here. The sister could have permission from mom. The bills being paid could be moms bills.
Not sure if there are any criminal laws, it could be a murky situation. Are they living together? If money goes toward expenses needed to maintain the household and care for Mom and Mom agreed to help sister it seems to be a gray area. If they are not living together, then sister is not behaving properly.
"But whenI see my moms money paying for movies, cable, phone bill and dinners in the state my sister lives that makes me sick."
She has the account statements in front of her. She's checked that no money is being deposited from other sources. Assuming that the sister lives in a different state from the mother (mother's facility is near Stargazer, I believe) it's hard to see how the mother could be benefitting from dinner and a movie.
Worth following up, at the very least, I'd have thought.
CM I saw that but it doesn’t really answer the question. Some of those bills could be moms. In the US you can’t see the location of the services are for on your bank statement-such as cellphone and cable and Netflix and such. It just says Comcast, Netflix, AT& T or whatever providers you use. It doesn’t show the property address. Same with certain utilities, like if you have PG&E for your gas & electric. It won’t show the location of the service on the bank statement. So Unless sister is writing checks and documenting on the note line that it’s for her personal bills (the way my MILs partner did), it’s possible that some of those are her mother’s bills. Especially if mom still has her own home. Even though she’s in a “dementia home”, there are still costs associated with her home. A Netflix subscription, if there’s is one, could be for mom. She might also have to pay for mom to have cable in her room. But dinners and movies at the movie theater, those are easily identified because they will show the location.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
I would get more details and if necessary, contact a lawyer. By your sister comingling funds, she could be really messing up the Medicaid spend down should your mom need it in the future.
But how do you know that your sister is paying your sister's bills with your mother's money? For example: how do you know that your mother's SS and pension benefits comprise all of the money that is being paid into the account? Do you actually have the account statements in front of you?
Question... Is your mom taken care of? Who sees her the most, takes and schedules doctor appointments? dentist, hair salon, grocery shopping. sings, dances, music social?... ordering and picking up prescriptions? ARE YOU DOING THIS TOO?
Joint account is a joint account.... I am in the same boat as your sister. I take care of my LO... I take her to get her hair done, set up doctor appointments, meet the nurses when they visit, get her prescriptions filled, visit with her, talk with her, read to her...... Nobody visits her..;.. And if someone questions me... well then I will hand over the reins and the accounts and the responsibilities, and everything else that goes on with taking care of someone... I moved her close to me. A f... walk down the driveway, but hey.... who knows when the person may "forget to take the walker,,,, and falls and breaks a freaking hip" And then what? You have to visit them farther away... and tell social services that you have another place... and they don't freaking believe you because you found a place to quickly..... Well, this isn't my first walk around the block..
SO, IF YOU ARE DOING EVERYTHING YOUR SISTER IS DOING AND AS OFTEN....then you may have a question or so....BUT IF YOUR SIS IS DOING EV ERYTHING AND EVERYTHING IS FALLING IN THE LAP OF SIS.......She deserves every penny that is being spent...
Sorry, about this, I question the person who is asking this. When I see the SIGN in SHEET and it is onLY ME...... seeing her, visiting her, taking her to appointments, reading to her.......AND THIS IS NOT THE REASON I AM DOING THIS.....I love her...
SHE CALLED ME.. SHE ASKED ME!!! NOW I HAVE HER 2 MINUTES FROM ME...CLOSE BY IN CASE ANYTHING MAY HAPPEN, I AM THERE... PERIOD..
If you feel it is unfair,,, then move MOM CLOSE TO YOU... VISIT HER .. SING TO HER, TALK, TAKE HER TO APPOINTMENTS WITH YOUR SISTER... BE INVOLVED IN MOM'S DAILY ACTIVITES...
This will help your sister too.. I was so happy when my friend moved her MOM in the my MOM..... She would call me and say, I BROUGHT MILK SHAKES, !!! COME OVER, SO WE CAN DRINK MILKSHAKES AND DANCE. AND BE HAPPY!!!!!
HELP YOUR SISTER TAKE CARE OF MOM.. PERIOD.. JOIN HER... DANCE TOGETHER WITH MOM, SING TOGETHER WITH YOUR SISTER AND MOM... HAVE FUN!!! bring dinner over and eat together. tell childhood stories.
HAVE FUN... MAKE IT FUN... JOIN TOGETHER... TELL SIS YOU HAVE THE TREATS... I WILL BE AT MOM'S...EATING, SINGING, DANCING...
THIS IS NOT GOING TO LAST.. :(
SO, DO NOT THINK ABOUT THE ALL MIGHTY F...N... DOLLAR.....
TAKE CARE OF MOM..... HELP SISTER OUT.. JOIN HER.. I don't know sister or you, what your personal family style is...kids... hubby etc... but I do know taking care of geriatrics takes a lot of time...., and if she is the only one like me... then yes,... she deserves basically what she is putting into your MOTHER.
I STRONGLY SAY THIS;;;; YOUR MOM DESERVES ALL THE ATTENTION SHE GETS FROM ALL HER CHILDREN... MAY YOU ALL DO SOMETHING GOOD FOR HER, AND GIVE HER THE BEST SHE CAN GET AT THIS TIME IN HER LIFE....Obviously all you love her... so hopefully all of you are taking awesome care of her, this is too much for one person to handle....
You are not on this blog just to be on this blog...get with the program, take care of and love mom as best you can...so you can have peace at the end.... No matter what..
Deal with the monetary crap later...if you feel you need to...NOW IS THE TIME FOR MOM. TAKE CARE OF HER, SPEND TIME WITH HER, JOIN YOUR SISTER AND TAKE HER TO THE DOCTOR APPOINTMENTS HAIR APPOINTMENTS DENTIST, GROCERY STORE DEPARTMENT STORE,... ETC ETC
I remember my brother (early dementia) saw mom and me in my car... he walked up and knocked on window. I was at a red light. I told him to get in.. Took mom to get her hair done... All brother could say, is he wished he didn't knock on my car door. He didn't know what he was getting into
Legally, that money belongs to both of them the second it's deposited in the account. That's what having a joint account means. It's just as much your sister's and it is your mom's. So she can pay her bills with that money. Since it's her money too at that point. Being a POA is besides the point. The joint account is what matters here. It would be a different matter if the account was only in your mom's name and your sister using her power as POA was withdrawing that money as POA from your mom's account. But she's not.
Now if medicaid comes into the picture, then it's a problem. Since it's seen as your mom gifting that money to your sister. And thus medicaid will want a clawback or will impose a penalty.
If all gifts were illegal, then I would dare say most people would be "guilty". Technically, medicaid could try to clawback a teddy bear given to a grandchild if it's within the lookback period. It's a non permissible transfer.
"But whenI see my moms money paying for movies, cable, phone bill and dinners in the state my sister lives that makes me sick."
She has the account statements in front of her. She's checked that no money is being deposited from other sources. Assuming that the sister lives in a different state from the mother (mother's facility is near Stargazer, I believe) it's hard to see how the mother could be benefitting from dinner and a movie.
Worth following up, at the very least, I'd have thought.