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Mom hired help but could not pay them? They worked for two months without getting paid at all?
No one else is obligated to pay off Mother's debts, credit cards, etc. after she dies. Any money or resources she had at the time of her death must go first to settling legitimate bills.
If this were my family and there was no estate to pay these people, I think we would all chip in and do our best to pay them. Not because it would be required of us, but because we would want to see the people who helped Mother be treated fairly. But I can understand lots of reasons other families might not feel that way. Dysfunctional families make strange decisions. If some family members were opposed to bringing in paid carers (perhaps thinking Mom should be in a care center) then I can understand they might not be willing to pay for it.
If Mom hired them, Mom is responsible for that debt. It should come out of her estate before anything is distributed to family.
But I'm still stuck on my first response. Mom found workers who kept working when they weren't getting paid? Where?
There where family members that where working on getting the power of attorney had told caregivers to stay on. But now feel that this is wife 2 and children are his. She has no children.They dont have to pay.
There where family members that where working on getting the power of attorney had told caregivers to stay on. But now feel that this is wife 2 and children are his. She has no children.They dont have to pay.
Morally I think money is owed since work was done in good faith. Mom's estate should be tapped first to pay this bill. Then the rest of the family should get together to cover it, especially any children who talked the caregiver into staying.
Didn't mom have any insurance. If it goes too long Dad is going to have to pay.I went through this when my dad died and a year later when mom died. Mom was responsible for dad's bills but I wasn't responsible for Mom's bills. It is too bad this is the case.
Do you mean that "mom" is actually your stepmother, and that your sibling believes that because she was not your biological mother there is no obligation to pay her bills?
There is no obligation to pay a deceased person's bills with your own money anyway; but that isn't really the point.
The person who is now responsible for wrapping up your mother's affairs - her executor, if she left a will - is responsible for settling outstanding accounts, including paying her care bill, but only with her money. If she didn't have any money, or any property that can be sold, then you are not legally obliged to pay the bill; but the family members might well consider it a debt of honour and, as Rovana suggests, pay their fair shares towards it.
If mother didn't leave a will, you'll need to find out what has to be done about getting her estate tidied up. You should be able to get information online quite easily.
Who made and paid for your mother's funeral arrangements? That person might be best placed also to know what's going on with her possessions.
Wow that must be a large amount.they should file a claim against the estate and have the ex of the estate pay it from the estate. I have been there as an ex for my mom's estate for 14 years after her death. Some debts die with her. But I still paid them out of the estate then my own pocket. But it's the ex problem.
In the caregivers' situation, if I were not paid I would file a claim on the estate, then if there was not enough money, I would sue the people who asked me to stay on, including the an amount to cover my legal expenses and inconvenience. It's illegal to work someone, then not pay them.
I have 24 hr live in help for my mother. We pay her every week in cash but have the helper sign the receipt book with dates and such. These people usually won't stay on if not paid. Check bank records to see if large amounts were withdrawn . And if this is his 2nd wife is dad dead already? If so the estate probably went to her after his death and would have to pay out before any inheritance.
Those who were working on POA and verbally asked caregivers to stay have created a verbal contract - the caregivers could sue. Settle mom's estate and pay them.
Family needs to do the MORALLY right thing and pay these caregivers who took care of their STEP mother (sounds like) when they could not do it for whatever the reason. She needed help, and they were there! To stiff them of their wages just because family has whatever issues is repugnant. Don't care what the LAW says. Do the right thing now.
If she was just a step mother and you are not her biological child, why were you trying to get her POA? If the family members who were trying to get a POA instructed the caregivers to keep working, then they have a LEGAL obligation to pay the caregivers.
It is because of family members like this that some really good caregivers leave the field. They need to put food on their table too. Stop taking advantage of their kindness. Who else would work for two months without pay! Would you???
This story really doesn't make any sense. How does anyone work on getting a POA? I mean it is just a signed sheet of paper. Would the mother not sign it for anyone? Who was paying the bills? Why were caregivers willing to work for so long unpaid? Were they family?
Years ago I was a POA to someone for 28 years. In the beginning there was a case of a rotten caretaker (I fired her). We also found out she was being paid in cash and then asked for a check. That was corrected at once. I have some questions: why would caretakers work without a salary or some agreement to be paid in some form? If there is an agreement, what was it and where is it? You need to find out. If the fees are legitimate, then they must be paid out of her estate. If she has no estate, then I don't know what to say but I do not believe the family is legally liable for the costs.
Caregivers who are contracted by an agency that pays their salaries, social security etc have a legal right to be paid for any services provided. There will not only be a signed contract but also the nurses will have returned timesheets stating what they did, so all the paperwork giving proof of services provided will be there. There is usually a log book kept with the patient's box of medications in which each carer dates and times the hours spent and also a brief description of the care given. Often there is space for the carer to note the health of the patient. This logbook is confidential and is not meant to be read by the patient's relatives. It is regularly returned to the agency to have the information in their system duly updated.
It will be up to the agency to present a final bill to your mother's estate and get added to the list of creditors. If there is not enough money to cover everything, then the agency will get paid "a due proportion" of their debt.
However, if the caregivers were friends or an informal network of kind people, with an arrangement for cash payments, and no timesheets or logbooks, then their services provided cannot be proved in court. There is no paperwork. So no liability.
Paid Caregivers can not work without pay for 2 months. They simply can't afford to do that, otherwise they are volunteers and not entitled to be paid. many people work and are paid "under the table" this is illegal for both parties involved but it is frequently done in the caregiving and other household help situations. Of course a worker can take the employer to Small Claims Court but with no written contract they are probably unlikely to succeed. That being said these people are morally entitled to be paid if there is money in the estate to cover these expenses. From the tone of the question I feel doubtful that the money is available which is why step children feel no obligation to pay up which of course they are entitled to do. Often kind heated people allow themselves to be walked all over when they help someone out from the kindness of their heart. I just hope the caregivers have learned their lesson and in future jobs don't allow time to pass without being paid. I certainly learned my lesson with tenants not paying their rent. i was just horribly exploited when I thought I was helping them get ahead in their lives. Lesson learned this is business so keep it that way.
The Caregivers need to put a lean on the woman's estate. They will need to prove hours worked. Hopefully they kept records and have someone signing off on hours worked. Morally, they should be paid since a family member asked them to stay on. By doing this, the family member was giving the impression they would be paid. Caregivers work hard for little money. They did Mom a BIG favor and should be paid.
Something about this situation doesn't add up. No agency will provide caregivers w/o a contract. These agencies protect themselves legally. So the caregivers must have been hired directly.
In some states, oral agreements aren't binding; therefore, no contract.
I find it difficult to believe that anyone would work for so long w/o pay.
I also agree that people don't "work" on getting proxy authority under a POA. And now that the mother is deceased, any such authority would be null and void.
If there really are such outstanding obligations, and if there is a will, and a PR/Executrix/Executor, he/she should confirm with the attorney who prepared the will that the caregiving costs are "obligations of the last illness." Wills typically provide that such expenses (including funeral and burial costs) which are last illness obligations are paid first.
BDAFlower, your profile states that you were caring for someone, at home. If this was your mother, you must have been aware that 24/7 caregivers were there, while you also were caring for her. Were you also aware during this period of time that the caregivers weren't being paid?
"But now feel that this is wife 2 and children are his. She has no children.They dont have to pay."
Is this your stepmother, and are you one of the children who doesn't feel an obligation to pay? That makes some sense given the few posts that you've written, i.e., that you don't want to pay for your stepmother's care.
You would have to refer to the contract. If the caregivers worked without a contract they don't have much recourse. Whoever signed the contract as "financially responsible" would pay. If no one in the family signed, then only your mother or the estate is responsible. It is up for the executor of the estate to settle outstanding bills.
Marie6, just a little nit-picking here on wording: "If she was just a step mother and you are not her biological child, why were you trying to get her POA?"
As a stepmother of three wonderful bonus daughters, I think it is demeaning to refer to that position as "just" a stepmother. You have no idea of the nature of the relationship between these two women. This elderly woman had no biological children, and her husband died. If the relationship was a good one, having a stepchild as a POA seems perfectly logical to me.
There are lots of parts of this story that are hard to follow and don't make sense without more detail. I agree with you that the caregivers should get paid (if they have not already gotten paid under the table.) This is true even if the people involved were "only" step-relations.
jeanne, I did not intend to downplay a step role at all. OP wrote specifically that because she was step, they feel no obligation to pay the caregivers. I am sure the step Mom was in their lives for a while since they were trying to get her POA. My point is even if it is a step relationship, their father would not have wanted his wife to suffer in her old age. Family is family whether it is step or otherwise. I Have a step niece but do not regard her as step anything. once you are in a family all those prefixes should be removed and treat people as your own. That is what I was trying to convey. As a result these children especially since one or more of them instructed the caregivers to continue working for them, they should pay them and be done with it. Taking care of anyone in the final stages of life is very difficult and these caregivers were there probably because if they are certified, they cannot just abandon a patient either. There are laws against leaving a patient unattended for whatever reason.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
No one else is obligated to pay off Mother's debts, credit cards, etc. after she dies. Any money or resources she had at the time of her death must go first to settling legitimate bills.
If this were my family and there was no estate to pay these people, I think we would all chip in and do our best to pay them. Not because it would be required of us, but because we would want to see the people who helped Mother be treated fairly. But I can understand lots of reasons other families might not feel that way. Dysfunctional families make strange decisions. If some family members were opposed to bringing in paid carers (perhaps thinking Mom should be in a care center) then I can understand they might not be willing to pay for it.
If Mom hired them, Mom is responsible for that debt. It should come out of her estate before anything is distributed to family.
But I'm still stuck on my first response. Mom found workers who kept working when they weren't getting paid? Where?
There is no obligation to pay a deceased person's bills with your own money anyway; but that isn't really the point.
The person who is now responsible for wrapping up your mother's affairs - her executor, if she left a will - is responsible for settling outstanding accounts, including paying her care bill, but only with her money. If she didn't have any money, or any property that can be sold, then you are not legally obliged to pay the bill; but the family members might well consider it a debt of honour and, as Rovana suggests, pay their fair shares towards it.
If mother didn't leave a will, you'll need to find out what has to be done about getting her estate tidied up. You should be able to get information online quite easily.
Who made and paid for your mother's funeral arrangements? That person might be best placed also to know what's going on with her possessions.
Such a shame to dodge such a situation...
Grace + Peace
Bob
If she was just a step mother and you are not her biological child, why were you trying to get her POA? If the family members who were trying to get a POA instructed the caregivers to keep working, then they have a LEGAL obligation to pay the caregivers.
It is because of family members like this that some really good caregivers leave the field. They need to put food on their table too. Stop taking advantage of their kindness. Who else would work for two months without pay! Would you???
It will be up to the agency to present a final bill to your mother's estate and get added to the list of creditors. If there is not enough money to cover everything, then the agency will get paid "a due proportion" of their debt.
However, if the caregivers were friends or an informal network of kind people, with an arrangement for cash payments, and no timesheets or logbooks, then their services provided cannot be proved in court. There is no paperwork. So no liability.
That being said these people are morally entitled to be paid if there is money in the estate to cover these expenses.
From the tone of the question I feel doubtful that the money is available which is why step children feel no obligation to pay up which of course they are entitled to do.
Often kind heated people allow themselves to be walked all over when they help someone out from the kindness of their heart. I just hope the caregivers have learned their lesson and in future jobs don't allow time to pass without being paid. I certainly learned my lesson with tenants not paying their rent. i was just horribly exploited when I thought I was helping them get ahead in their lives.
Lesson learned this is business so keep it that way.
So the caregivers must have been hired directly.
In some states, oral agreements aren't binding; therefore, no contract.
I find it difficult to believe that anyone would work for so long w/o pay.
I also agree that people don't "work" on getting proxy authority under a POA. And now that the mother is deceased, any such authority would be null and void.
If there really are such outstanding obligations, and if there is a will, and a PR/Executrix/Executor, he/she should confirm with the attorney who prepared the will that the caregiving costs are "obligations of the last illness." Wills typically provide that such expenses (including funeral and burial costs) which are last illness obligations are paid first.
BDAFlower, your profile states that you were caring for someone, at home. If this was your mother, you must have been aware that 24/7 caregivers were there, while you also were caring for her. Were you also aware during this period of time that the caregivers weren't being paid?
"But now feel that this is wife 2 and children are his. She has no children.They dont have to pay."
Is this your stepmother, and are you one of the children who doesn't feel an obligation to pay? That makes some sense given the few posts that you've written, i.e., that you don't want to pay for your stepmother's care.
As a stepmother of three wonderful bonus daughters, I think it is demeaning to refer to that position as "just" a stepmother. You have no idea of the nature of the relationship between these two women. This elderly woman had no biological children, and her husband died. If the relationship was a good one, having a stepchild as a POA seems perfectly logical to me.
There are lots of parts of this story that are hard to follow and don't make sense without more detail. I agree with you that the caregivers should get paid (if they have not already gotten paid under the table.) This is true even if the people involved were "only" step-relations.