When families normalize dysfunctional behavior, how to break the cycle?

Unless your mother realizes she may have a problem with opiates and drinking, she will not change. Good luck.

If your BIL wants to help, if he lives close ask if he and your sister (and also perhaps your brother too) can attend the 4th Jan appointment with you and your mum. If they live far away, and you attend the appointment with your mum check if you can set up a conferance call (using your cellphone or ?) so everyone hears the same thing so you are all on the same page about what is the bestnext step for your mum.

Also for your own safety have someone else to drive you and your mum back, and a plan B of you going to stay with a friend or family that night (not staying next door to your mum even if you have to set up alternative carers to visit her) for a week or so while she takes in what was said on the 4th and/or realises that the current situation can not continue. Always remember "People treat you how you let them" so after so many years it is now time for you to look after yourself first.

"I feel this strange pressure to "normalize" her continued dysfunctional behavior (addiction, narcissism, etc) and now even the dementia."

Parental conditioning, like Pavlov's dogs, we get "trained" to "correct" behavior. It can be difficult to break out of this "training", but it CAN be done! Many people never recognize the fact that what they are trained to do, following in their parents' footsteps, might be wrong! The insanity is perpetuated - people will say "...my parents did this and I turned out okay." I refused to be "okay" and repeat how my parents treated me when I had kids. It worked for me in that respect, but I was unable to stand up to others - that took much longer.

So, when you feel the pressure, banish it! Begone evil daemon! Don't give in to it.

"I can't begin to think of a way to even have a conversation with her about her future care needs."

If she has dementia, is there a need to have a conversation with her? As you suspect, she won't like the discussion and get angry, and then will forget it, so why go there? I only brought up AL once and her response said it all. This was from one who had planned to move to AL if/when needed and now had no use for it. We NEVER discussed dementia with her, as she would've denied that! One doctor did tell her it "wasn't safe for you to live alone." Bad idea. Mom went ballistic.

"Don't all sane people know that dementia is a different animal and majority of people end up needing to go to a facility?"

Not really - if one hasn't been down this road, one can be clueless. I had heard of Alzheimer's, but nothing else and no clue what the symptoms were or what to watch for. It was only when she started repeating herself that I did some research and began working on brothers to get them inline.

"I'm nervous because I think there is a strong chance she will have a very negative reaction."
Is it possible to arrange either alternate transportation OR bring a friend along? The friend can sit in the waiting room, but be with you for the ride home. Often having someone else around, esp a non-family member, can curtail the behavior (mind your Ps and Qs and not air the "dirty laundry" with outsiders!) Have your friend "walk" mom back to her condo and LEAVE with your friend. Mom might show up later or call to express her anger, but you don't have to answer the door/phone!

In one of your posts, you mention working with EC atty on facilitating the move. Hopefully you already have all the POA paperwork in hand. My experience with this (moving/atty) is:
 1) Mom refused to even consider moving ANYWHERE, never mind AL
 2) EC atty told me we couldn't "drag her out of the house", aka force her
 3) EC atty suggested guardianship (major expense!)
 4) Facility we chose would not accept committals, aka guardianship

I would work with the atty, research and visit (often) several MC/ALs, ask LOTS of questions of both Atty and Facilities, take notes, go back and visit the ones you liked, ask more questions. You can do all this w/out consulting mom or others in the family. It's a lot of effort, but once done, it's behind you. Any family pipes up saying what to do or what you're doing is wrong, ignore them or tell them THEY can take over and do it all. THAT should shut them up (it sounds more like they are avoiding so maybe this won't be an issue!)

Out of characters again - posting suggestions for move as a reply to me!

I can relate to that. I have a parent that was an alcoholic up until the last 15 or so years. He's 91! He was I'll and spent 6 months in a rehab center. He lives with me and my 2 grandchildren. He still drives a car, after his doctor wrote the DMV to revolk his license due to hearing and vision loss and very elderly. He tries to act like, "I can take care of myself" even though he can't remember what button to push to turn on the TV , he can't clean up after himself and is incontinant to the point of me having to put chux all behind the toilet, on the sides of the wall and bathtub, on the floor in front of the toilet and on top of the tank cover! That's is only the bathroom! He wears the depends underware, pulls it off and leaves it on the floor of the bedroom where he and my grandson share a room! I am totally stressed out!

I can absolutely relate. My mother is also narcissistic and had alcohol issues in the past (she hasn't had alcohol is about 4 years). She also has the beginning of dementia. She gets nasty and beligerent when she doesn't get her way or when she hears things she doesn't like or when she believes things are happening when they aren't. We have all turned a blind eye to her drinking and general self centeredness for decades.

I've learned over the course of the last year not to fight her. She no longer wants me or my husband to go into the doctor's with her or make her any other kinds of appointments her GP may want. So we no longer do. I've advised my father that he will now have to be the one to be her caretaker, instead of the other way around. She feels we are spying on her and telling everyone she is crazy. She is just an unhappy human. Only my mother could see things that are being done out of love as a negative.

I've discussed with my Dad that as long as they are not in any harm, I won't get involved in any decisions for them, unless I am asked. He wants to stick his head in the sand regarding my mother's condition, no matter how much I try to make him realize that this is not going away, she is not going to get better, in fact her memory is deteriorating quickly and then I will step in by having a doctor sign off on the POA. Then the decisions will be made for her whether she likes it (she won't) or not.

I don't feel guilty for my decisions. As the old saying goes - You can lead a horse to water... They seem perfectly happy living their life so as long as they are safe and relatively healthy, we do what we can - and what they allow us to do - for them.

I am sorry for what you are going through.  I grew up with an alcoholic father and a mother who thought she deserved what she got.  It is HARD to break the cycle.  The bottom line here is....so what if your mom responds negatively?  It's her future you're trying to figure out and plan for...let her get angry and hateful.  Just sit and watch her like you're looking at a child throwing a tantrum.  Don't let her get a reaction from you.

If it were me, I would just say "you can either work with us to lay out a plan that you currently have a say in, or you can bury your head in the sand and once you are no longer capable, we will do what we think is best".  Those are her options...period. 

I had to let my dad continue with his drinking and carrying on.  I had to walk away to keep my sanity.  That is until I got a call that he had a stroke.   Then I had to come in and make medical and burial decisions without his input.  If he wanted something different, he should have planned.  Years later I realize he was sick and not capable of doing anything normal and I have accepted that.
You cannot fix her dysfunction.  But, you can choose not to enable it or let it ruin you.

Hi! I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. My mother is also an alcoholic, and her mother is mentally ill. I recently purchased a book "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" by Lindsay Gibson. I recommend this book to everyone. It's helped me more in a few weeks than years of therapy. No joke. I wish I could post a few pictures of the pages here.

It's based on decades of psychological research and explains EVERYTHING. It discusses the types of emotionally immature parents, why they are this way, what it does to their children's coping strategies and personality development, and how it tends to have a ripple effect through generations. It talks about these parents' preoccupation with themselves, their lack of ability to take responsibility, anticipate future problems, communicate feelings, cope with stressors (often resulting in addictions), and how they resist repairing relationships and become overly fixated on family roles. It also teaches you ways to manage your interactions with such parents, set healthy limits, break the cycle of negativity, and how to recognize and surround yourself with more emotionally mature and healthy people. Seriously, this book is a goldmine. If you're even just remotely thinking this could be helpful to you, or a loved one, order it. It's on Amazon and it's cheap. While it's helped me immensely in understanding my mother, it's also helped me understand so much about myself, it's improved my relationship with my husband, and I believe it will help me be a more emotionally healthy parent myself. Good luck!

I can definitely relate to what you are saying. My experience w/my mother, all my life, was that she was mean, narcissistic and definitely a borderline personality disorder. When I finally figured all this out, after a lot of therapy, and tried to explain why I would only be involved w/her on my terms, many family members denied the problem and "attacked the messenger" (me) instead. This fractured a lot of my family relationships, and even all these years later, they have never really healed. I realise now that those who denied the problem are/were the ones who are/were just like her. and it logically follows that I wouldn't be able to get along with them either. It helps to understand all this intellectually, but emotionally it's still a painful loss.

I definitely agree that setting boundaries is one answer. In my case, as she aged I insured that she was in a clean, safe environment that met her needs, and remained in close touch with the facility that provided this care, but that was the extent of my involvement. I don't feel any residual guilt over this decision b/c I did the best I could, and didn't completely abdicate my responsibilities to her...I just carried them out on my terms, not hers.

If addiction/alcoholism is part of the problem, and it sounds like it is, then Alanon might provide some support for you.

I know this is really difficult and hope sharing how I ultimately handled my situation makes you feel less alone. Wishing you all the best...

You can bank on a negative reaction if that doctor starts weaning her off the opiates. It is so very, very common for alcoholics to move to pain pills while they are moving away from alcohol or when they find out alcohol plus the pain meds are a much better feeling. There were just too many doctors out there willing to prescribe the pain meds (and unreasonable quantities) just because someone complained of pain. Additionally, some did it even though they were quite aware an alcohol problem already existed. Thus, all the talk about reforms these days.

After you hear what the doctor has to say, you can create your conversation with her. Hopefully, he does go the addiction route so that the door can be opened with the help of an unbiased professional and things you avoided so many years can be discussed. And you will need medical assistance to lower amounts of the alcohol/drugs after so many years of abuse.

Good luck to you. It's not easy to change a lifestyle for ourselves, much less that of another person.

Completely relate. Set boundaries and stick to them. Not only for your Mom but your siblings as well. Your Mom wont change but your response toward her can. Never take her behavior personal because you are not the source of her dysfunction. Live your life and when you think you need to stand up to her or say "No", do it! Let her be as negative as she wants and only do what your gut instinct tells you to do. Take back the power she has over you and you will see her behavior change. Good luck to you!

Frankly, I am gobsmacked by this discussion. “I” am the problem, and never realized it until reading this thread. After years of bitterness, begging my sister for help with OUR mother, I finally see how dysfunctional our family truly is. I’ve been brainwashed into protecting the wrong standards.
I’ve been to various counselors, on/off over many years, and never gained the insight that was shared here.
I didn’t see how “normal” families behave, so without a realistic frame of reference, I’ve been sucked into the dysfunctional tornado.
I have some thinking to do, and will certainly grow from this experience.
I’ll be back, but for now—THANK YOU.

With a slight shuffling of genders and issues, y’all gave a blow-by-blow description of:
•my dead family
•what’s left of my living family
•my in-laws

And my conditioned reactions to them.

I’m almost embarrassed by how many decades I rolled along, being the designated fixer.

OK. Who am I trying to kid? I embraced being the designated fixer. Even when it went against my best interests.

When you are raised from day one to be That Kind Of Special, it’s a hard habit to break.

In my 40s, I hit the wall with being everybody’s Sin Eater.

But.

I lacked the language to truly “call them like I see them.” I lacked the tools to protect myself.

Then I stumbled upon AC Forum. 💡

I’m done caregiving. For now, at least. Yet I stay on these message boards.

In my circle, nobody is getting any younger. And nobody is getting any saner.

AC Forum is a living tutorial about boundaries. What they are. How to identify people who don’t have boundaries.

And most importantly, how to develop your own boundaries.

I need the constant reinforcement that I get from reading your posts. You folks are awesome.

Even though I am darn good at compensating for other people’s personality disorders, it is NOT my calling. It is NOT my purpose.

Reliably, the Tribe Of Weaklings recognizes my “gift.” And it is frequently their default expectation.

NO. Just NO.

Thank you, AC Forum! Love and hugs to all. 💗💪🏼😃

You have to learn to pick your battles.

Accept the fact that at this point in time, you are Not going to change your mother. Quit trying. Think of the Serenity Prayer.

My mother refused any assistance so I quit trying. She passed in 2004, leaving me to assist my father for 7.5 years until he passed in 2011. I went in "blind" because my parents "didn't feel the need" to disclose information to their children.

I sat down with my father and explained that I would not pressure him to do anything - and I was pretty much good to my word - and we got to know each other on a much better level after my mother passed. He was not the villain and she was not the saint. They were human parents; we all have faults and vices.

You don't really have the 'right' to try to normalize anyone else. When you realize that the only person you have the right to even try to change is yourself, it will make your relationship with Mom a lot easier.

Wow, is this ever my area of expertise. Narcissistic mom. Walking on egg shells. Addiction in the family. I won’t lie - it has been tough. I have been living with recovery principles for over 20 years and I had to change how I thought about things and needed help with that. Here’s how I did it. The first step is being aware of the problem and you are there! Next, I have to get over the idea that I couldn’t dislike my mother. Something felt sacrilegious about talking about mom. I thought a lot about my priorities which were my husband and children. I started standing up to her - which at first gave me stomach butterflies. She would fight back hard to get her way. I had to allow her to fail. My instinct would be to make sure she had all her needs attended. She won’t starve. She won’t die without electricity if she forgets to pay the bill etc. I ended up taking her from her home and liquidating it all because she wouldn’t do it herself (and maybe wasn’t capable. Being old is hard). She was mad and accessed me of abusing her and called me names. When we sold her house, I put the money in an account with my name on it too - because she would never agree to go to the bank to make that happen. Work on your sanity. Growing up with an alcoholic makes people overly responsible and too helpful to the detriment of yourself. It may take therapy or Adult Children of Alcoholics to retrain your thought patterns. The tears and hard work are worth it.

Your mom will have a negative reaction - she likes all her substances. May I suggest something for you - counselling for yourself. It appears you have co-dependency. Please go to Ala-non and/or a counsellor to learn new ways of coping and managing your life. Mom may never stop her alcoholic/addictive behaviors. It does not mean that you have to keep "covering" for her poor life choices.

Yes, alcoholic father and siblings, narcissistic mother and sister( sister is both) . Due to the combo everything was a “ family secret” so you learn to pretend which is really denial. If you can, please go to a therapist. It really helped me realize I’m nothing like they claim I am( mother and sister are verbal abusers) and none of what happened in my childhood was my fault, they chose their life course and I don’t have to stay in the course they put me in. Dysfunctionally raised kids can break out of that toxic relationship

When I watched a room of 6 professional healthcare workers get gaslighted and abused by my mother, I finally stopped trying to fix or normalize behavior. A therapist gave me a little mantra. "I did not cause this situation. I cannot change her. I can change my own response." I also chanted under my breath " I am not responsible for her unhappiness. I chose to help keep her as safe as is reasonable. "

Adult Child of Alcoholic Parent. When I heard that label and read about the details of it, it helped me to start healing and setting boundaries. Wishing you strength as you face the challenges before you.

I can relate. Your last sentence about the charade of her independence being intolerable for you, in itself, signals a breakthrough.

My siblings leave it to me to be the bad guy, and they see their involvement as telling me what I should or should not do or tolerate.

Enlisting the authority of the doctors seems to be the most merciful way to confront lack of cooperation.

Hey Piper! After nearly a decade of dancing around my parents' elderly alcoholism (both of them together), dad died in a memory care home a month ago and mom has been in a mental health hospital for almost three weeks now. She's only 77 but is so beaten up from falls and has poor balance from drinking and Benzos, they've now got her confined to a wheelchair. This may be permanent. She will be transported to an assisted living facility in a few days but I am concerned her "charade of independence" will continue and she will demand to go back to her home. She told me yesterday she plans to keep her car and continue driving.

The whole situation has left me concerned for my own future. It's time for me to focus on my life. If I lose my career, husband or health over this mess, it will be tragic for me, adding to the tragedy that has been my parents' "retirement" years (spent drinking, miserable).

How the F can our parents do this to us? I am so heartbroken that my family became yet another sad statistic. This morning I listed to "Firework" by Katie Perry, the words so much describe the way I feel right now, and I hope it's true that "After a Hurricane, comes a Rainbow"!

Sorry you’re going through this. I’m 11 years into my mother’s diagnosis of vascular dementia. My siblings and I are on the same page, but we are at odds with my uncle, who is in denial. As we speak, my mother has been committed to the senior behavior ward at the local hospital for aggression towards staff and other residents in her memory unit. Which solves the problem for a week or two.

I wouldn’t waste a whole lot of time worrying about the past. Not much to be done there. Instead you need to prepare for a difficult future. Because our mother was so difficult (borderline personality disorder) we couldn’t make any progress talking with her. She refused to take any proactive measures that could have made her life better. The only way we were able to force changes, was through doctor/hospital.

I don’t know your whole driving saga, but in PA my mom’s PC ordered a senior driving test, where they tested her cognitive state and reaction time before they would even take her out on the road. It was the only way we were able to get her license taken away, despite multiple accidents. I’m surprised she didn’t have to surrender her license when prescribed long term opiates.

You need to get PoA squared away. Every time my mom needed a step up in care, she refused it. The only way we were able to get her into a facility was through the hospital. The magic words are its not safe for her live at home. It wasn’t but it took us a while to figure out that that’s what they needed to hear. (Our mother was not a candidate for in home care, because we knew she would just fire anyone we hired to come in. She consistently refused care the hospital would send round). Also, it’s important that you don’t step up and volunteer to take it on temporarily, as that lets the hospital and off the hook. (My mom would try to jump out of the car and we didn’t even feel safe driving her). If you hold your ground that you can’t help, they will have to find a safe placement for her.

For a long time I went through an ethical dilemma of trying to figure out how to be a decent human being to my abusive mother as she aged and needed help without ruining the lives of me and my family. The answer for me was ultimately you can’t help people who won’t be helped, and the best course of action was to step back and let the state, which has much more power to enforce, be the bad guy. I think you are right to be wary that people assume you will be nursemaid.

Good luck.

I can relate to this type of charade, but it was my SIL's drug addiction that was constantly covered up, the rest of the extended family was not to know., (they could tell something was very off). When she overdosed and died in MIL's home, you would think that it could no longer be covered up. No, MIL insists SIL died of a lung disease. If I tried to say anything or intervene, the result was in laws saying I just hated SIL. The denial is exasperating. I wish you all the best. Some people do recover.

Alcoholism is a 2 fold disease: an allergy of the body and obsession of the mind. AA for her and Al-Anon for family & friends of the alcoholic works for most people who want help. AA.com.

The simple answer is: break the cycle by not becoming an alcoholic/addict or addicted to controlling another's behavior (the Al Anon part). The difficult answer I learned from Al Anon: "Not to manipulate situations so others will eat, go to bed, get up, pay bills, not drink/use/act out. Not to cover up for anyone's mistakes or misdeeds. Not to create a crisis. Not to prevent a crisis if it is in the natural course of events."

My mother's self made crises finally confirmed to everyone including the social worker ...that she needed to be in an assisted Living/Memory Care facility. If you don't have the resources, Medicaid will step in for a shared apartment. It was the absolute best thing I did for her and me. Because from my experience things only get worse, never better.

One of the resources is the Lord, Jesus Christ. My long term alcoholic/druggie BIL has finally been sentenced and is in jail for almost a year.... he is reading the Bible! Sometimes we go allll the way down, then we see the light, and are saved and delivered. Those who are willing, please pray for him - I actually know of people who were instantly delivered of drugs and/or alcohol when they met Jesus; no one is hopeless, including your mom, Piper!

Piper,

Wanted to add that while we were growing up there wasn’t much support. Addiction wasn’t spoken about as much and it was shameful for the addict and families. Everything was very secretive then so we had no frame of reference. So don’t feel badly about the confusion of what we felt as a kid or even later in our life. It’s a process, a journey to healing for anyone in this situation.

Both the addict and their family suffered in silence. We lived in a hush hush world where we were taught to smile in public and present ourselves as a ‘happy’ and ‘acceptable’ family.

Thank God, we now live in a society that is willing to talk about issues like addiction. There isn’t any shame in going for support these days.

So I fully encourage you to get that support for you and your mom. I hope she will know it comes from a place of love and accepts.

Unfortunately, my brother did not accept my offer to help him get into Bridge House here in New Orleans which has a good success rate with addicts. It’s not a quick program which is what I like about Bridge House. It’s an intensive in-house rehab and they learn how to integrate back into society while in the recovery process.

The addicts are allowed to work in the Bridge House thrift shop and other jobs that are available. I couldn’t make him participate in the program so I had to accept his refusal.

All you can do is try. There is support out there. You aren’t alone. There are many resources now for families of drug and alcohol users.

Piper,

Yeah, I can relate. It’s really weird too. My mom sort of accepted my brother’s drug habit as ‘the norm.’ She didn’t approve but allowed or as they say, she enabled some things. Consistency is key in changing situations. If you mess up, start over! Keep going until you get it right.

My dad wanted to be consistent. Mom fought him every step of the way. She undermined him and undid his actions. It was frustrating for my dad. Yet, he loved mom. I wish they could have had a united front. That’s what the family needed.

I do remember my brother going to juvenile homes but he would run away. So my parents did try. One judge ordered him to a home that was farther away. He had no friends nearby and he had to stay in that home. My brother was a drug addict but he was cunning. He could figure out how to escape!

If I had done any of his stuff they would have disowned me. The way I look at it now is it was a tough learning experience for me. I used to be bitter about how strict they were with me and was furious at how all of my brothers got away with so much sh!t. At the time though, I thought nothing was fair. Well, life isn’t always fair. I learned that lesson very early in life.

Now I see how they actually did me a favor because I learned to be independent. Am I still angry? Nah, not worth holding onto the anger anymore. It’s faded into disappointment, even somewhat indifferent to it all now.

Piper, you are the independent one. You are the one who has escaped the madness. You didn’t fall into the trap of addiction. Nor did I. By the grace of God, I didn’t follow my brother’s footsteps. I’m blessed. So are you. You are nothing like your mom.

Take your experience and use it as a learning tool. You know how you feel. You know what needs to be done. Do what you feel is best. Does that make sense to you? I hope I expressed that clearly. You know why it hurts so much, don’t you? We are caring people. How do you think we ended up as caregivers?

Caregivers get stuck. I know I did while caring for my addict brother with hepatitisC. It’s possible to get unstuck. With the help of a loving nurse, I did. If I had listened to mom who begged me to continue helping him I would have ended in a mental hospital because I would have cracked up! Look into an Al-Anon group. They are very helpful. I promise.

Best wishes to you. Hugs!

EP; thanks for the lovely compliments. Therapists generally don't give advice; I do, based on my own experiences and observations of others.

Which brings me to this; you have a long time to think about that January 4th appointment, but the one thing I would NOT do is drive a car with my very angry, demented, addicted mother after that doctor's appointment.

My mom, who was not in any way a particularly disturbed person tried to wrest the steering wheel from my husband as we drove her on a 6 lane highway from rehab to her new assisted living place. I have no idea what was going on in her head, but from the moment we got her in the car and turned on "calming music" (Pachelbel Canon), she started crying hysterically. She had been diagnosed with vascular dementia while in rehab, but she mostly just seem to misinterpret stuff and had some interesting delusions about dead bodies being carted about and the nurses having sex in her bathroom.

But anyway, she yanked the steering wheel and fortunately hubby was driving or I wouldn't be here. We NEVER drove her in a private car after that.

I want you to think carefully about what purpose your presence in that doctor's office will serve that afternoon; I frankly see NO good coming of it.

At least part of the "dysfunctional cycle" is likely your own believing you can "fixit". You can't.
Certainly with dementia on the plate you won't be dealing with any of these issues, other than your OWN issues of how best to protect yourself, your immediate family ongoing. There is no dealing with a demented mind, nor with a narcissistic or psychotic mind. Nor an addicted mind.
As long as you are this intertwined with your mother's life, it is your life you have given over to her. If there is an addiction problem this is yet another issue you will be utterly helpless against other than joining an al-anon group as soon as possible.
I missed it if you said that your Mother is living with you. If she is, I suggest that she not live with you, but live now in assisted living. Inform her with gentleness that this will not work for you and your family. You will be met with hysteria; that's a given. You will have to "grey rock" through it often.
If she does not live with you you are in control of limiting some of your visitation, and rebuilding your own life before it is taken over utterly and completely. Get yourself some help to deal with all this. Wishing you so much good luck.

"I can't begin to think of a way to even have a conversation with her about her future care needs. Don't all sane people know that dementia is a different animal and majority of people end up needing to go to a facility? Yet this can't even be addressed. Yet at the same time my tolerance for this at this stage of my life is VERY low."

Yes, sane people know that, but your mother is NOT a normal sane person. Mine wasn't either.

Her PC sounds aware of her issues which is a plus, Maybe ask him to have the talk with your mum about her future care needs. It often is accepted better from non family. I found everything got more manageable when professionals were involved.

I was not able to talk any sense with my mother or my sister. Although I was POA financial and medical and doing a good job, I was seen by them as a trouble maker as I would not enable.

Likely she will have a strong negative reaction. What's new? Mother used her anger to manipulate and gain control of a situation. Alanon could be very helpful, and/or therapy, and/or reading boundaries by Cloud and Townsend and so on. Help yourself first.