Where to begin?

Pking4445: As far as your mother, depending on what type of medication she is on, the meds may be manifesting themselves into hallucinagenic actions, e.g. talking to oneself, shaking one's head is NOT normal. She definitely needs a psychiatric evaluation as well.

Pking4445: Definitely get another psychiatrist because that one, quite honestly, was a very bad joke! Try to work with an elder law attorney. Idk if any of the $$$ an be recouped, but at least worth a shot.

Both of them need a neurological workup. The psychiatrist seems to have had tunnel vision. Bad decisions are often made by compromised brains and some type of dementia (not necessarily Alzheimer's) may be behind it.

This is the starting place, hard as it is.
We'd love to have you update us when you can.
Carol

You should definitely hire an attorney for now. That's a lot of money that your father went through. What does he have to show for it?

Staying alone most of the time was his way of preventing anyone from discovering something was amiss. However, he eventually got to lonely and reached out for company, which was about the best thing to do when he realized he didn't want to die totally alone. As his mentality deteriorated though, someone had to speak up and be his voice. Had someone not noticed and spoke up, who knows what would've become of him, he may have at some point been hit by a car for all we know, who knows? I now find myself also staying alone most of the time, I learned an awful lot from dad! There's only one difference between me and him, he'll answer the door to anyone who knocks whereas I won't answer unless I'm actually expecting a specific visitor. Other than that I normally don't answer the door if no one I'm not expecting, especially strangers! I would never let a stranger in my house either, I don't really like those cleaning companies because while their cleaning your house, they can clean you out by taking you to the cleaners! In other words, they can rob you blind even if they pass a background check and have never caused a problem before. There's always a first time for everything and I just don't trust anyone I don't know. Furthermore, even people we actually know can also turn out to be someone we should never trust to come in and help. I even heard some sad stories about daycare workers who ended up abusing the children in their care, ever wonder why I would never let a stranger in my home? Some of what I know is only a few examples of why, and I don't blame elders who refuse outside help, they're only protecting themselves by using extreme caution, and I don't blame them. Easing your way into the life of an elder must be done with extreme caution because we never know what they've been through or why

I strongly agree about getting a neurological check up on your parents. Someone here mentioned about drivers licenses. I think they only source that may be able to temporarily suspend any drivers license says is either the cops or the doctor. The BMV can't just suspend someone's license without some kind of proof from a reliable resource, This is why I strongly suggest getting a doctors recommendation after getting them both checked out. It would also be a very wise move to start speaking to local law-enforcement about your suspicions and observations. The more information you can share with them, the better. One wise move is to share a description of the car along with the license plate number when you speak to local law-enforcement. I've noticed around here they can't pull you over without a very valid reason like a light out or some other visible problem. What will likely happen is they'll investigate and start watching for the car after running the plate. They run the plate to see if there are any violations on the drivers record and they decide what to do next depending on each case.

Asked for the money situation though, you'll definitely want to gain guardianship if you don't feel POA or even representative payee would work though in some cases POA or representative payee would work. I don't know if your parents get Social Security or some other income, but you have a huge advantage if they happen to get Social Security because you can report fraud to Social Security because you can tell them that scammers are taking advantage of elders and robbing them blind. Consequences are very serious for people stealing federal money, and you would be in a very good position to become their representative payee if they happen to be getting Social Security. Sometimes elders don't trust anyone to come into their homes for various reasons, and refusing outside help is just a way of protecting themselves due to known vulnerability, and I don't blame them! People take advantage of elders every day and I don't know how much is being done to stop it before it's too late. No sooner then you let a stranger into your home to help out, before you know it something valuable goes missing and I don't blame people for refusing outside help for that reason. Any vulnerable person can be taken advantage of at any age and a now deceased friend who was recently murdered is proof of that. She was only 29 when a mass murderer in our town killed her I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this same person who took advantage of young girls may have also stolen from them, you must be very careful these days and I don't blame anyone for being very leery of even opening the door to strangers because you can't trust just anyone especially these days. If you wonder why some elders become hateful after someone overrides them and their wishes, that's why. One example is when I saw a lady in a state home years ago who was obviously very upset about being there. I'm not sure of the situation, but something obviously happened to her as well because she was very hateful toward anyone who tried to communicate with her. Hindsight is a very good teacher and I can now see why she was hateful. I think that to some degree decisions should be made to gather with the involved party by giving them some say and not just taking over completely as much as absolutely possible. Guardianship may be absolutely perfect for some people who absolutely need it but in other cases all they may need is a representative payee to take over their accounts. Taking control should be done with extreme caution since so many elders suspect money is being stolen by whoever takes over their money and in some cases this is actually true! Having access to extra money is temptation right there, good reason to be very suspicious if someone takes over their money and won't give them money when they ask for it. It's very common to have very serious trust issues when someone takes over your money because unfortunately it takes money to get through life because "there's no free lunch" as the saying goes. People need financial security and stability especially as they age, and anytime someone comes in and takes over your finances, it appears as a big threat to your financial stability and security because it seems like the person taking over your finances is really taking it away from you, and in some cases this suspicion actually turns out to be true. Looking at the case with my foster dad before a guardian took over, I now see why he stayed alone most of the time, he was protecting himself. The pieces didn't come together until later on down the road when I started realizing things I didn't know before. As things unfolded, I started realizing more and more why he was really staying alone, he was self preserving by not letting anyone close to him. His goal was to live at home until he died, he wanted to die at home. Staying alone most of the time was his way of preventing anyone from discove

I can see that it can be really, really hard for someone trying to get this kind of help for parents, if they do not already have POA and control of finances. Many people simply cannot pay for a consult with an elder care attorney by themselves. If this is the case, one should contact their area council on aging and meet with someone who can give them resources. If there IS a lawyer parents have worked with before, go there and ask for a complimentary app't to ask for help to get them assessed and the right kind of help. My parents had a great plan in place, but they still didn't want to give up any control to me, even when Dad could not pay bills and utilities were ready to be shut off. I had to get Mom to give me a credit card to use to get them paid....and then I called the law office who had done all this POA, last will, trust stuff and say, HEY....there are problems there, but Dad does not want to give up control. So the lawyer, called and said it was time for them to come in for a 'routine check up' about their trust.....and I stayed away. The lawyer got Dad to sign the paperwork and to agree that it was time for me to pay the bills and told Dad that he, the lawyer, would be checking that I was doing everything right, and that Dad could call any time to ask him questions etc..... Lawyer, said all the way down the line....do what you need to do, and if there is fighting, call me, and let me be the 'bad guy'.....I do this every day. He has been a god send for me! But, I make sure all their needs are paid for from their money. I never mix our money with their money, unless it's an accident, and then I make a note in the budget forms for that month and get it squared off before end of the month. Sometimes, it's hard to go grocery shopping and remember to pay for our food with our card and hold Mom's things back and then do hers with her card....for example. And once, I bought her a patio set for her balcony that was on sale, but the only way to get the sale price was to use our Home Depot card.....so those kinds of things happen occasionally. But if you start paying for your parents expenses, you are just setting yourselves back for your own elderly years.....unless you just happen to have lots of excess income.

As Mark Twain said "every person has the right to go to hell in the manner of their own choosing". That is true until somebody in the package is incompetent enough to be declared legally incompetent. Because you can't do this by agreement and cooperation with Dad and Mom, keep your records but repeat part A above. Nobody can be forced to go take a Neuropsych test, which can be used as evidence for your court case. So, keep your records of examples and wait for the breaking event. Usually there will be one.

I like the neuropsychologist idea from Grandma1954, but you may want to start with a geriatric assessment for both parents, if you can persuade them to go. If you are near a medical school or large medical center, look for a board-certified geriatrician or geriatric program. Persuade your parents that this "special consultation" will be to help them age successfully and stay as independent as possible. The geriatrician or geriatric team (at our center includes geriatrician, geriatric fellow, pharmacist, social worker and chaplain), can help you lay out a care plan for them, including referrals to neurology, neuropsychology, psychiatry, or whatever else may be needed.
An elder law consult is also a good idea, but it may be best to find out what you're dealing with medically first. Good luck!

pking4445, both Grandma1954 and Hugemom laid out a good foundation for you. And if you are the only driver/caretaker/voice of reason for your parents, be as efficient as possible with doctor's appts and follow-ups. Try to schedule everything for mom and dad during the same block of time. Rather than separate days for him and her.

I assume you work full-time. Even the most flexible employers grow weary of the "caregiver skedaddle." And it's not just doctor's appointments that only happen during business hours. It's banking and finance, insurance issues, lawyer visits, etc.

Approach your HR department and request an application for Intermittent FMLA. Now. A portion of the application will need to be completed by your parents' doctor. Many folks are unaware of Intermittent FMLA. It's just what it sounds like. You can take a batch of unpaid work days, individual days or hourly increments as needed for caregiving. With minimal notice, if the situation does not allow for fair warning. And these absences are NOT factored into your attendance stats or performance evaluation.

If your parents' current diagnoses are not severe enough for your HR department to approve Intermittent FMLA for you, that's (yet another) reason why your parents warrant further medical and neurological evaluation.

In the meantime, do what you can for your parents with vacation time, sick time and scheduled time off. And as out-of-control as your parents seem right now, try to hold back a little bit.....so you have some personal resources left for the next surprise or escalation.


Try like heck to get medical and financial POA for your parents -- if you are not already. Of course, there's this little obstacle: your parents make bad decisions. Be as persuasive as you can be. But remain open to the fact that they might crash and burn without ever giving you official capacity to intervene.

I was in your situation a while ago. The trainwreck was not financially dire, thank heavens. But EVERYTHING my mother did was driven by impaired reasoning, self-neglect and odd paranoias. Because of this, she rejected all of my common-sense suggestions. Therefore, no doctoring and no diagnosis for her. And no DPOA, no health-care proxy and no executor status for me. (I am her only living adult child.)

Mom only accepted my help in the form of helping her pay bills (out of her accounts) and making sure she had enough to eat (again, her funds). And select odds and ends around the house. In short, Mom dug in, rejected every idea that wasn't hers and kept her so-called independence. At the expense of my free time, my sanity and my constant -- and ultimately fruitless -- research on how to handle every possible upcoming scenario.....when I'm not authorized to handle any of it.

Oh, one exception. A funeral home will take anyone's money. I footed the bill for mom's funeral while her outdated, uninvolved and somewhat surprised executor -- who lives 6 hours away and hadn't seen mom in nearly 15 years -- was struggling to gather everything he needed to open mom's estate and assume fiduciary responsibilities. (I was reimbursed as quickly as the mess would allow. But it still smarts.)

Best of luck to you. When you present your ideas to your parents, put a positive spin on them. Be hopeful. At the same time, don't be surprised if what makes sense to you (and the whole wide world and the legal community) does not fly with your parents. These are rough years.

This can be difficult. Friend has a mom who has a house that is a total mess but she refuses to clean or hire anyone to do it, even though she is very well off financially. She also claims to have no money, blames everybody else for her problems, and thinks everyone is out to rip her off! She is very lax when it comes to eating the right foods and taking her medications as well, and is constantly depressed. When it was suggested that she see a therapist, she says that she is fine and everyone else is just nuts!!!

Is there any other family member involved in their lives but you? This is not something you can handle on your own. You are meeting resistance at every turn and you desperately need someone on your side. Talk to your OWN PCP and ask for help. Consulting with an elder care attorney can also point you in the right direction. Get your feet under you with some outside help, and then when you're certain what your rights are, move ahead with help for them.

Zombie - you can report your father to the DMV or even APS. You can ask that your report be kept confidential- your identity, that is.

The PCP hasn't gotten the report yet. I don't know if he'll do anything; he's only met us once and was pretty hands off. The psychologist wasn't going to report him. She just recommended that he doesn't drive. I've been saying that for 3 years but nobody listens to me. I don't know yet if they'll listen to her. Our state doesn't require it to be reported.

Zombie - can't the doctor contact the dept of motor vehicles to have that licence revoked? - here that happens all the time - when they improve a new drivers test gets it back if they pass
Make appointments & take parents even if you pay for first one - this can give you a proper diagnosis to deal with - guessing is just conjecture & much better to know exactly what is going on - don't they have any insurance?

My dad was diagnosed as bipolar at age 65 and had three psychotic breaks in 2004, 2005, and 2013. Since the last one, he became apathetic, does nothing, and won't take care of his hygiene. After a 3 year fight when he refused help, I finally got the results of his neurocognitive testing last week. It confirms my diagnosis of damage to the frontal temporal lobe. He has FTD which sometimes is misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder. But, they still leave it up to him if he wants help. He doesn't. So, that's all I can do. I continue to watch him slowly rot away. She said he shouldn't drive and asked him if he would stop. He said no. She asked if he saw any impairments in himself, and he said no. She asked if he had any trouble driving. He said, "No, except that I can't see." So, watch out for the sleeping, "severely impaired" motor skills, semi-blind driving coming your way! I hope you can get help for your parents but I've failed miserably. You can't force someone to accept help.

The first thing I would do would be to get them both in for a neuro workup.
Consult another Doctor other than the first one you father saw.
Always good to get a second opinion anyway.
I have gone to several seminars near where I live and I have heard a NeuroPsychologist talk. I think if I were to have heard this doctor when my husband was first diagnosed I would have taken my husband to see him. A neuropsychologist works with a neurologist to work on a treatment plan. Working together seems to be the key. (he told of one gentleman that had been to a neurologist and he had been diagnosed with dementia. The family had obtained Guardianship for this man, so all his "rights" were taken from him. After this neuropsychologist started the exam he determined that the man was very hard of hearing. So all the questions the neurologist had asked the man could not answer at all or correctly. This brings back the point that you should have a second opinion...)
Your Mom may very well be suffering from depression.
You might want to try to put an alert on your fathers accounts.
And you might want to consult an Elder Lawyer so that you can get some protection for your Mom. It may be determined that your Father is not competent and you or someone will have to become his Guardian.

As far as the doctor costing money and your Mom worried about that, we all want to save money but when it comes to our health and or safety now is not the time to pinch pennies. If she had a high fever, twisted her ankle, sliced her hand open, found a lump on her breast would she go to the doctor? We take care of the physical because that is what we see. We have to take care of the mind as well. "We" all need to accept that the mind is another part of the body that needs to be cared for. The stigma of having something "wrong" with the brain needs to go away. Education and acceptance is the only way that will happen.