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I have a developing situation I am not sure how to handle. Any help giving me ideas would be appreciated. First off a little back ground. My Father took ill about two years ago. He passed away about a year ago. For one year I moved him near me in Florida and took care of him. The one thing he had going for him was he had some money so it was not on me. I had to liquidate his assets and took it on the nose because he lived in Michigan and things there are stupid hard to sell at any kind of fair price. But I did it and my wife helped me along the way.

Now to the existential problem today. My wife's family father and mother are ill. Her Mother has Alzheimer, I know unless there is an autopsy you can not know this but it sure fits the bill. She is 75 and forgets things from moment to moment. Her father is 79 and is doing his best to take care of her. They live about 600 miles away in a small town in Tenn. They bought an old farm house and my wife's sister and two kids 21 and 17 live with her all in the same small farm house. Her sister and two kids get the down stairs and her parents live in the attic they converted into a small one bed apt with bath and small kitchenette. It is getting to a point that they are going to have a hard time making it up and down the stairs. They also have no funds as they were and still are Jehovah's Witnesses. I can remember arguing years ago they needed to save money for retirement and was told the end was near so they did not need to worry about this. I can not say much as spilt milk is spilt milk and to say I told you so does nothing to fix problems. It just makes me mad as I left this cult many years ago over just this kind of crap and started to save money for retirement albeit later than I should have. My father in law quit his job back in the 70s at General Motors and moved to Northern Michigan to "spread the word" I.E BS of the cult. He would have about 1700 a month extra if he would have stayed in and retired from GM.

That said My wife's sister does not work, she is 45 years old and stays in bed for most of the day every day and supposedly suffers from depression. I can not say this is not so but it seems she is very lazy. I used to arguer with her also years ago that you need to plan for the future and was told the end was near bla bla bla. Now she is divorced with one kid who she gets a small amount of money a month for the next year till she is 18. She lives off of my wife's parents. They only bring in 1600 a month on SS.

My wife went to visit a few weeks ago and her father was asking in a round about way to help. I refuse to help her sister or kids not out of any malice but out of our preservation. I also am not going to let her throw money at her parents due to this being a temporary fix that will not fix anything but delay the inevitable. I do not know if it would even help for her to move near them to help take care of her mother. I just do not see a good way to help. We were looking at retiring to Arkansas and bought property there and could build the house with a finished basement to move her parents but I don't think they will move.

I told my wife off the top of my head that her parents need to call the local social worker to see what is available. People who are on Medicaid can get medicare and on social security can get SSI if they are desperate enough. Also meals on wheels and if one of her sisters kids can take care of their grandmother sometimes they can qualify to get paid to do so if they are in need of special care. First off they need to exhaust the provisions of the Government. I feel I owe my wife but I also know you row a boat into the middle of drowning people and you will get swamped and drown yourself. I feel this is a no win situation.

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This is a complicated situation, made so in part by the involvement of the JW. Whatever you might say, think or recommend is probably going to be filtered through the JW beliefs.

Frankly, I think your wife's aunt has allowed her situation to evolve b/c of her own actions or inactions, and I agree that consideration of helping her shouldn't be done. She isn't going to change.

As to your in-laws, I suspect the same situation exists. If your wife were to move closer, she'd not only be away from you and intellectual stability, but would be so much under the influence of her parents who don't think independently and haven't made good plans for their retirement. This would be like an emotional, psychological and financial quicksand for your wife.

I do think that what she can do is assist them in applying for Medicaid and to research other programs that might help. Tennessee may have an elder law state agency, there should be an Area Agency on Aging in their area. Both are good resources for what programs might be available.

I would say let you and your wife's contribution be the research, contacts and channeling her parents toward assistance. But don't do more than that; don't move there, don't invite them to your home or even your area as I suspect you will quickly regret that.

(I've read your post 2 -3 times, so I hope I have understood all the dynamics and issues, but am really not sure that I have!)
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I think you understand but its not her aunt but her sister. My wifes sister her parents daughter and her two kids that live with them.
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Sorry, I did have the feeling I was getting confused somewhere along the line. But are your wife's parents, your in-laws, still the ones who need help, with your FIL being the one who was hinting at help?
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I agree with GardenArtist, but also, your SIL, may very well have depression, but that is treatable, if she seeks care from a Dr. She may also qualify for assistance from the state, if she seeks that out in thee form of social services, welfare, medicaid and food assistance until she gets back on her feet, and in a return to work program for women. She may well be doing a lot of caregiving for her parents too. Having your wife take some time to help the apply for these services is probably the best thing right now, as GA mentioned, bringing them into your home would probably spell disastrous to your marriage and your own livelihood.
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EDteach, I think your instincts are correct and that throwing money at the situation is a temporary measure that is not going to make much of a difference in the grand scheme of the matter. It might make your wife feel better, but I would strongly encourage you to get legal advice before doing anything. Giving them money could cause them to be disqualified from one or more programs.

And even if only one of the parents has dementia, it's unlikely that the other senior, who has limited mobility, would be able to care for a dementia patient in the home. And it's also unlikely that a bedbound depressed person, like your wife's sister, would be able to provide complete care in the home for a dementia patient.

I would seek legal counsel from an attorney in their state who knows Medicaid and Social Security Law (disability) to see just what resources all of the parties may have. For example, when calculating for Medicaid purposes, how many incomes are included? They may include all the money that comes into the house, even their adult daughter.)

Plus, there may be issues of the people who are living in the house when the parents have to go to long term care. Can they continue to live there? Who pays the taxes?

I guess the parents don't have a Durable Power of Attorney. If not, there may be issues of taking control and seeing that the parents get appropriate care and there is the sister who is depressed and in bed. It may be sensitive, but if the parties were to receive the resources that they are entitled to, maybe the burden would be lifted and your wife wouldn't feel so helpless.
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Ed, do the Jehovah's Witnesses have "beliefs" that might interfere or affect medical care, i.e., such as refusing care through a hospital, or believing that prayer is the first option in the event of a medical emergency? If so, that could affect any care that could be arranged through governmental agencies.

Just wondering, as some of these types of groups have some very unusual beliefs. (and for anyone who's religious, don't take offense. The issue is one that's germane to Ed's question and is not addressed to the validity or nonvalidity of any religious group.)
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You are correct - throwing money at them is the easy solution.... for THEM. Unless they feel the pinch - they won't make any changes. DO NOT GIVE THEM MONEY - but help them find services through local services, medicare, Medicaid. They are adults and can certainly find sources to help them - don't let them be lazy and play on your wife's sympathy. You have worked hard and have been smart and should not have to pay for that, because you have some resources and they don't. Help them fish. Don't give them fish. This topic always rubs me the wrong way because my husbands mom always wants us to help dead beat brother in law pay his mortgage, or pay so he can get a lien off his car, etc. "because he is family". The words "no, I can't give you money but I'm willing to help you become self sufficient" are not what they want to hear, but you need to protect yourselves. Otherwise, you have some pretty heavy, long term boat anchors that will be around your necks.
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Ed, Your in laws live in a home they can no longer maintain or navigate. Living in the attic (no matter how nice it may be) can't go on for ever for people this age. Not saving for the future is a poor plan, no matter what faith you happen to be. Many people haven't saved anything and it has nothing to do with their faith. They need assisted living. They nee help with daily chores, bathing, medicine management, food etc. I don't know if Tenn. has a program for seniors to assist them financially with this, but your wife needs to do some inquiring. As for her sister, she needs to see a Dr. yesterday for her depression needs. Throwing money at this situation won't fix anything. Pitching in to seek placement for the folks is what's needed. They need a home all on one level with assistance. Get going on this. So much can be done over the internet and phone. You guys can to this
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You're right Ed. Do not row your boat into this mess. I came from a similar family situation. I'm now the sole caregiver for my folks who are 600 miles away. I do all I can but I won't sacrifice my life and life savings for the cause. This may be hard for your wife but hopefully you can convince her not to sacrifice your lives because her family made terrible life choices and is dysfunctional. You're not going to fix this. Do what you can but keep a healthy distance and keep your life and money.
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If you have to move her parents,, and I am not suggesting this.. do NOT move the sil and her kids also. If she is only 45 and stays in bed all day.. she will become your leach too! I call BS on this , she needs to get some help or the end that is coming will be sooner for her than she expects! Wake up call for her! The time may come when the parents can;t be left to make that decision for themselves.. but she does not need to be part of the package. And it does not sound as if she is helping...
But my best advice is as stated several times above.. don't do it!!
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Your instincts are right; my Bible says "you know not the day, you know not the hour" and there is no realistic religious justification to failing to plan like that. The parents need to be on the ground floor, not the attic. You and your wife could go together and see what changes can be made, and you can contact social services, but to move there would not be a good solution, as you might find them all resistant to making even the simplest most necessary changes, and unless they are declared incompetent or are in imminent danger, you would have no support. Waiting until something really bad happens is no fun, but if you are stuck doing just that, you have my sympathy. Paying something on a one time basis for cleaning or moving, or on an ongoing basis for a housekeeper if they would let one it could be reasonable. Check with an eldercare attorney about any filial responsibility laws in the state where they might apply. Do NOT start doing anything you cannot do or would not be willing to do long-term.
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And if there are filial responsibility laws.. point at SIL!! She is living there! Good luck here!
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Here's my 2 cents....why are the elderly parents in the attic and the 45 year old daughter and her son on the first floor? That really needs to change...but are the parents willing to change this or will the simply roll over when their daughter complains? Exactly how dysfunctional are they? It seems to me that sister is more than willing to stay with the status quo, and why not? Stay in bed all day, have someone else pay for everything and she doesn't need to be responsible for anything. Sounds like she has a pretty sweet set-up. Please DO NOT start paying for them, they will bleed you dry and then the resentment comes and your own marriage may suffer.
If the sister is really that depressed perhaps she should be hospitalized....leaving her untreated could be really scary - if only to her son. I'm guessing your wife feels that she (and you?) should be helping fix this situation, but I don't see how you could help....if your in-laws are unwilling to change the situation and are willing to let their daughter and her son continue to mooch off them....there is NOTHING that you do that will change the situation, except you will be poorer for trying (and not just monetarily!).
I really hope you take the others advice, find and send them the information on programs available to them in their state and then just back off and let them do something for themselves.
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edteach, I agree with the others not to throw money at a situation that is not working. Instead, turn your energy toward finding a good solution. They have a house and land that is not suited to them anymore. Could it be made ready for market and get a decent price? Your SIL should be able to qualify for disability if her depression is bad enough that she cannot work. Her children would qualify for some assistance, as well. They could move into their own subsidized apartment, so your parents could sell their home.

Trouble is that a lot of parents will say no, they aren't going to move. When that happens you just have to wait until the right time. Until they are ready it may make more sense for the SIL to move upstairs and let them have the downstairs. Falls in the elderly can be the start of major problems -- loss of mobility, brain damage. You can have an occupational therapist (Medicare allows) to come in and assess for safety.

I wish you didn't have to be so involved. Depression is real. One of the symptoms of it is lethargy that looks an awful lot like laziness. I don't know her, so can't say one way or the other. I hope you can get this worked out without driving yourself crazy. I wouldn't want to have to untangle the mess you're dealing with. You have my sympathy. Big hugs to you and your wife.
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Tacy, thanks for the insight. I'm wondering if their belief in Armageddon and not planning financially means that they would reject all governmental support even if needed.
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Lost...making our team work working again!!!
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No Tracy its not a generational thing. I was in the cult for 30 years and most of my family is still in it. Most of them will not even talk to me because I not only left I had the audacity to say it was wrong and I did not believe it to be correct. They still teach that you do not need to plan for a future I.E. go to college or work to get a good job and that it would be wiser to pioneer [knock on doors unpaid 40 hours a week.] The slaves at the New York Headquarters get paid less then 100 dollars a month for up to 16 hours a day work. I have several family members who have worked there for years. Slaved. Its a cult where the top 9 members old men called the "governing body" live in luxury apartments, fly all over the world at a whim and stay at what ever country head quarters they feel like giving speeches on how close the end is while telling the rank and file to slave at menial jobs and send in your money. Many have died in lands such as Malawi and other lands due to their policies, or as one of my cousins did, died refusing a blood transfusion during a delivery of a child. My brother had a scholarship to the University of Michigan and the elders told him he needed to focus on preaching. At that point he was still in the cult, I got him out and he went to college late in life. 40 and just one year ago finished CRNA school and makes 130k a year. If he would have stayed in he was at a truck driver job making about 9 an hour. So am I bitter, yes, but I would say if have a right. And when people try to apologize for them it does tend to tick me off.
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tacy, apples and oranges. Its not a one of, well for me it is because I have only one set of inlaws that are in this situation, but I know of many many JWs who are in or died in this situation. My uncle died in a trailer after living like there was no tomorrow, His wife my aunt lives in her daughters basement now at 86 and they made very good money in construction but lived and saved like the end was neigh. I have several cousins who live hand to mouth at retirement age, I have several family members who at 70 plus work at Walmart and the like because they can not make it on SS. I had one family member who many years ago when they could opted out of SS and died working. So if your trying to imply this is a one of , an out-layer then you either have no clue of what JWs are or you are trying to apologize for them because of some connection. I could go in to the history of how Charles Taz Russell said the end was in 1874, 1876,1914 and the last date he said was because Jehovah built the Pyramids of Giza and the interior passage way measurements was given to man by Jehovah to tell them when used properly when the end was here. Or that Aluminum was the devils metal, or that Vaccines were puss of horses and not to be used, or their raid against the AMA, or their policy of hiding child molesters due to you will be disfellowshipped if you go to the police or any authority for any matter that is dealing with any fellow JW. So if your kid is molested by a fellow JW you can not go to the police or authority's but only JW elders. So your kid is molested by brother John and your kid tells you. You go to elder Jim and he goes to Brother John and John says nope never happened. Well there are only one witness to the crime the kid and the JWs say every matter has to have at least two witnesses to it and if the person who committed the offense does not admit it then the elders can do nothing and you are forbidden to go to the police or you will get disfellowshipped. So defacto its a safe haven for child molesters. This is just the tip of the ice burg of the JW cult. So if you really want to talk to someone who knows what they are talking about we can keep going.
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So Ed, did you grow up in the J Dub church? How old were you when you left? Just curious.
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Wind, I was raised in it as was my mother and father. I grew up not having birthdays, xmas, being able to have friends outside the cult ect. I left in 1995 at age 35 when they said the word Generation used in Mathew meant any generation from the old meaning of the generation that saw the 1914 invisible return of Christ would live to see the end of the world. [don't even begin to ask its such BS its almost impossible to explain] Suffice it to say when they did that BS change I said this is a cult and left. Also around 95 is when the internet came on strong and I had access to others who had researched out the history of the cult and gave me an education of how destructive it was for the first time. JWs you see are not allowed to read or talk about anything critical of the cult.
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I forgot to add that JWs hate and discourage their people from going to Psychologists or Psychiatrists. The main reason is due to the fact that these people will recognize the mind control used and know how destructive the cult is. I have talked with several Psychologists and to the one the second you say JW they start to roll their eyes and shake their head. There is a reason that the Suicide rate for JWs is high.
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Watched part of a program on one of the science channels on the KKK, and how it controls and manipulates its members as well as indoctrinates them into believing they are special. W/o going into all the detail, they use special codes, wording, etc. - makes them feel they have a special relationship to each other.

This bonding is also used by other cults, including religious ones. I understand what Ed is writing - someone in the JW doesn't think for him or herself but needs to blindly follow the "doctrine" of the "leaders."

I suspect that even if he told the JW elders in his family that they need to prepare, his words would be unheeded and worthless because he's left the cult.

This is where I think that Tacy's observation that his "bitterness" was affecting his thinking is wrong - Ed knows what these people will think and what they won't think, especially whether they're open enough to realize that they need help and will accept it.

The Amish also have their own methods of control, brutal in my opinion as to the way the teenagers are treated.

This is not an attempt to instigate disagreement on religion, but rather to provide support to Ed and hopefully insight from someone who's familiar with another religious cult. Brainwashing IS a major form of control.

Moving on now, and back to what Ed can do....and he has some good advice on that aspect.
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Ed, I hope you are finding some good suggestions from the people who have posted. It is clear by you asking, that you care, at least that they are your wife's parents, and that what concerns her, concerns you. Hopefully you can get them some governmental resources set in place for them. I think this would be a good first step. It may well take your wife going there to help assess their situation and take them to the social services office, or make arrangements for them to come to them. I'm sorry that this is so hard for you. I do think that Tacy's main point is that as their daughter, she has and feels a responsibility to them, as we all do, no matter the situation. I still think that throwing money at them, is not the answer.
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Tacy, thanks for the insight on your position. I don't disagree with what you wrote in this last message; it was only the issue of Ed's position on the JW that I disagreed with...perhaps "disagree" is too strong a word.

I just thought that it wasn't a factor in his approach to helping, which is how I interpreted the comment you made. And I do think he obviously wants to do that - he wouldn't have posted if he wasn't trying to identify and weigh his options.

He's just searching for the best method on how to handle the issues, knowing that their JW beliefs might interfere with his efforts. That's my interpretation..
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Nutty religion aside, it is quite true that many folks, religious or not, make horrible life choices, don't plan for old age and become horrible burdens to families and our shredded government agencies. There is a thread here somewhere on that very subject. However I'm very sympathetic to Eds situation and don't doubt the inlaws religious beliefs contributed to this mess. We probably should discuss religion elsewhere and get back to how Ed can best deal with the issues at hand. Check your message board Ed.
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I'm soooo sorry... This is a horrible situation! I detest the brainwashing of the cult that contributed to this... and the whole thing is just awful...!! I have no "pat answers" or "easy solutions" or even a clue what you can possibly do to adequately intervene on their behalf. But I have sincere empathy for you, your wife, and this deplorable, sad situation. (Years ago, I had to stop trying to "save" a dear friend in crisis, unplanned pregnancy, no husband... I let her move in with me, then later gave her the rental house and I moved out, then giving her furniture, etc. etc., even though I was poor and single at the time myself... Eventually, I just had to stop trying to intervene, especially after two more unplanned babies were born...! I just couldn't "do enough" to "save" her from herself, I guess... It haunted me and broke my heart... but sometimes, in some cases, we can't save certain people we truly love... ).
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I've been following this and there's a lot of good advice. I totally agree with not moving any of them in with you and don't provide any money. My thoughts are:

- they certainly will refuse to move anywhere
- probably living a somewhat hermit existence they won't accept outside help (my mother who wasn't at all religious refused to have anyone in the house)
- providing them with information on where to get help will fall on deaf ears
- I'm concerned they'll place such a guilt trip on your wife that she'll move in with them and Bam there goes your marriage and your future

Due to age and mental/physical issues it's only a matter of time before one of them falls down the stairs, is badly injured and taken to hospital. At that point hospital social workers step in and will guide you with regards to placement somewhere safe. My mother suffered from strokes, parkinsons and dementia and lived on the main floor but was constantly falling.

In the end she fell twice in one evening ... 8 p.m. and 2 a.m. The last fall she was in a pool of blood and out of it. I couldn't lift her so called an ambulance. Knowing I could no longer manage her alone 24/7, she spent a month in hospital then was moved to a lovely nursing home with skilled staff 24/7. She screamed and hated on everyone for the next 3 years. She passed last fall.

Unfortunately this is often how it ends. Please keep us updated as to how things are going. Dog Bless and Woof!
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The dyslexic agnostic....Wasn't sure there really is a dog.......
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lol Windy. I often sign off with those words. Personally I prefer my dogs, Sue and Ashy, to most humans :)
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I don't know how part of my post ended up on this thread, that is crazy!! LOL!!
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