If a person has a POA, what are his rights as a principal? Can he still decide for himself where to live?

You may need to check with a lawyer, your local senior services center may be able to help with basic answers. They also have a great network of services. Are you a relative, friend, significant other? Just wondering, trying to figure out what their motivation is. Contact APS. Tell them you are not allowed to see them, do you know of others who are also "banned" from visiting? Make it very clear you are not accusing them of elder abuse but that you feel that something is not right, isolation of person, family spending more than normal on vacations (do you know for a FACT that they are taking many more vacations than they did in the past?) What are their reasons for denying you access, have they said? Do they feel that they are protecting their loved one? There are many unknowns so it's kind of hard to give you better suggestions.

As said, this question has been asked before and answered


https://www.agingcare.com/questions/after-over-15-yrs-taking-care-of-a-75-yr-old-man-his-kids-took-him-without-asking-because-they-have--447918.htm

Makes more sense from the families point of view. Thanks for the info!

Worried, if she won't mind my saying so I don't think Sassafrass is all that much younger than her friend. Her kids are "full grown." Maybe a gap, but she's not some giddy wee slip of a thing.

The basics are yes as a mentally competent adult he has full control over here he lives and who he see's and talks to. POA only gives the appointed person the legal right to act as the principal do the things they choose on their behalf. If that principal becomes unable, for instance they are having or had a stroke and can't speak or think for themselves a MPOA can step in and make medical decisions they believe the principal would want. In the event the principal is no longer competent say dementia has taken their ability to make decisions for themselves a DPOA gives their appointee the right to take over life's decisions and business if the principal objects to decisions their DPOA are making I believe a note of agreement from a treating physician (or whatever the set perimeters are) allows it to kick in and make decisions basically against the principals altered wishes, move them kicking and screaming or protect them from others influence. If there is no assigned DPOA I think at least in some states it's possible for an appointed POA to make it durable or get guardianship with the support of medical professionals and an attorney otherwise the state steps in an appoints one. Having said all of that the fact that his "children" plural sound to be on the same page and sound to be the chosen POA might indicate to me that either he isn't being "taken" or forced into anything and likely whatever is happening is in his best interest, maybe even with his blessings. What makes you think something nefarious or to his detriment is going on?

Unless the Person you Speak of is MENTALLY INCAPACITATED, YOU HAVE RIGHTS if they CHOOSE to SEE YOU. That is IT.

You need to go to court to get him back. It will take a while and will be expensive.
My now deceased uncles third wife was diagnosed with AZ, a couple of years after the diagnosis her daughter took her for “lunch” one day and kept her. He had to go to court, both of them had to meet with councillors to prove he wasn’t abusive and she was then under the supervision of the state from then on. She was returned to him as they were still in love as decided by the councillors and that he wasn’t abusive. He passed before she did. it’s ironic that her children ended using up her money on court and state fees from the illegal actions the daughter took.

This issue should be discussed with an elder law attorney.

Sassafrass3 thank you for sharing more of the background and history. I'm sorry for what you're going through, and I hope there will be a way forward for you with a happier outcome.

The thing is. What this sounds like to me is that your friends' kids had become increasingly worried about him, were too far away to do anything much for him, and decided to intervene. Not before time, one might think, but there it is.

The way they went about it was to go round you. They have presented you with a fait accompli. I can only guess at their reasons, but the one that would make obvious sense is that they wanted to avoid confrontation. So they didn't consult you or involve you, they just went right ahead. And now they have an upset man on their hands, and they see you as potentially making that worse. They are keeping you at arm's length with the aim of getting him to settle in and adjust to a different way of life.

If that does make sense to you and you'd agree that it's a possibility, then they have shown no consideration or concern for you whatsoever. And while that sucks from your and your kids' point of view, it is also true that you and your family are not their problem. No, they don't care about you. They had one priority and that's all they've taken into account.

Being hurt and angry would be natural, but it will get you nowhere.

What you want is to re-establish communication with your friend, so that you can continue to offer him support and love, yes? Can you do that if he remains in a facility in the care of his children?

As long as you are prepared to accept the major change to his living situation, it should be possible to negotiate contact. Do you have access to a lawyer or mediator or anyone who can help you with this?

He is not going to be coming back. I know it seems unfair, and I agree that you and your family have done a great deal to support him; but despite all of that the family will have no difficulty whatever in presenting his living situation as being unsafe, and claiming the right to direct his care from now on. You're not going to win that battle. Holes in the roof? Unsafe wiring? The car caught fire? Unexplained injury? These things were in no way your fault, I'm sure of that, but you can see for yourself what it would look like in court.

Your friend has a right to be listened to. I don't know whether he is considered legally competent or not, do you know? If he is, then technically he is in charge of decisions about where he lives; but that doesn't mean he is up to a verbal fight about it. If he is not, then his DPOA or his guardian takes charge; but your friend *still* has the right to have his wishes taken into account.

So. You need professional advice, and you want to focus on two goals:

1. Ensuring that your friend's rights are being protected, about which you can raise legitimate concerns and demand enquiry into them.
2. Contact with your friend, in whatever way also safeguards his best interests.

You have to forget your grievances with the family's behaviour; and you have to forget how hurt and bereft you feel. Look forward, and focus on what happens next.

Mind you - the money for the car insurance should be straightforward. Are you claiming 50% of the payout? Have you actually asked for it?

Sassafras if they are trying to settle him into the home of a family member, and you are openly planning to encourage him to leave and return to his home which is too far from them, are you really surprised that they don't want you getting in touch with him?

I don't like the way they're handling it; but I don't think it's going to help if you refuse to see their point of view. Your friend IS entitled to his say, I'm not disputing that; but his family are also trying to do what they think is best for him. It's not unreasonable that they try to make it work for themselves too.

How about getting some professional advice on this, is there anyone you can consult?

Oh Sassafrass. You are breaking my heart.

No, I did not say that his kids have all the say.
No, I did not say that you will never see him again and you must just put up with it.
No, I did not say that you are the outsider, with the inference that you don't count.

What I am praying you will take away from what I am trying to say is that this is a *negotiation.* You WANT to see him. (Your stuff, and the car insurance are different - later). You WANT to know that his rights are being respected, and that there are eyes on this.

Well, there are ways to achieve these things. But the all or nothing approach is NOT going to work, because his kids DO have a right to their view as well. If you're going to get what you want, you are going to have to accept at least that part of it first.

I have recently learned - thank you WorriedinCali! - that in every jurisdiction in the States you can get a Civil Standby. You call your non-emergency police number and ask them to accompany you while you go to the address and collect your belongings. Have you tried that?

As you were a registered owner of the car, you should be able to trace the insurance policy number through its records. Thinking aloud... it was a write-off, they paid out to the policy holder, the car was scrapped... The insurance payout all went to the policy holder. That is correct. But the value of the car should be half yours. I'm not sure where you stand, actually.

All in all, you need advice from somebody who can sit down with you and listen and comprehend and guide you step by step. Is there anyone you can talk to?

Sassafras,

This is a precarious situation. You need to cut your losses. You should probably walk away. This situation is like a death.

This is is the danger of a POA. When someone takes over for you, their judgment totally and completely replaces yours. It is hard to identify someone who will truly respect your choices over their own best interest.

There are two separate issues now, discussed separately below:
1) Seeing your friend
2) Getting your stuff

1) Seeing your friend -
You probably will not see your friend unless you already have a favorable relationship with the one family member who is the POA. The POA has the power to exclude you from every aspect of his life. It your friend wants to see you, but the POA does not want that, you will not see him again. Your relationship with other family members is irrelevant. You friend may be headed to a facility where you will not be allowed to visit.

You probably will not be made aware long-term of where he will reside.

2) Getting your stuff -

A Civil Stand By may anger the family- you would be involving the police- with your fact pattern, this could inflame them and make your situation worse.

Your best option is diplomacy with —only the POA. This way you may be able to get some of your things, but probably nothing else. This is a very delicate situation. If s/he senses you are asking for more, s/he will probably not let you get any of your things. If the POA thinks you are making life easier by removing “your junk” you might be let in. If the POA suspects you have left something of value, s/he may feel that it should belong to the estate and deny you entrance. If s/he allows you to get your things, make sure s/he (or a representative) is present - and have one of your friends there too as a witness, for your legal protection. You could even ask them to box up your things for you (so you can’t wind up legally accused). If someone other than the POA gives you access to the house, you could be accused of theft.

If you are accused of wrongdoing (either criminally or civilly) your legal expenses could bankrupt you. If they are angry with you, and/or feel that you have benefitted “too much” financially from your association with their relative they may pursue a case against you.

If you choose to file a lawsuit to get your things, do so in small claims court only.

In civil court, you will be opening a can of worms as they could easily reply with a damaging counter-suit against you (fraud, misappropriation, elder abuse). I’m not accusing you— just suggesting a lawsuit against them could trigger this legal response). Your legal bills will cost more than the things are worth. Legal defense fees in civil lawsuits can quickly cost a hundred thousand dollars (plus), even when you prevail.

I agree that that they are only doing this for the money - they never came to visit. They did not offer to help when he needed them. They left you to “take care of it.” But they will not take care of you.

Maybe you need to talk to a Mediator and see if they can set up a mediation meeting between the family and you so that you can get your belongings back.  (And maybe, just maybe set up a schedule for you to have supervised visits with your friend.)
https://www.scmediation.org/
The Southern California Mediation Association, founded in 1989, is devoted to promoting mediation as a tool for resolving conflict. Mediation empowers parties to design their own solutions to disputes that might otherwise prove costly and cumbersome to resolve in court or arbitration. Mediation can also be used to solve problems that might not be suitable for court at all. SCMA provides resources for the public to learn more about mediation, and to find mediators skilled in assisting with all kinds of disputes. To find a suitable mediator, and learn more about whether mediation can help resolve your family’s or your business’s dispute, go to the Select a Mediator page.

https://www.scmediation.org/for-the-public/select-a-mediator-directory/
SCMA provides this Select a Mediator Directory as a service to the public, and to SCMA members. The directory consists of SCMA members offering mediation services, who have in addition taken at least a 40 hour course in mediation, or the equivalent, and met other requirements established for listing in this directory. SCMA relies on the representations of the listed members that they have the qualifications and experience listed, and makes no representations as to the accuracy of the information furnished by members.

The directory is searchable by geographical area, by subject matter expertise, and by hourly rate, allowing users to select a mediator appropriate to their dispute. In addition, the individual listings provide additional information about the mediators’ backgrounds and credentials.

To set up a mediation, simply contact the mediator you have selected. These members are responsible for scheduling and conducting mediations. SCMA does not receive any administrative or referral fee either from the public or from its members for maintaining this directory.

Sometimes having a third party involved helps you get the problem resolved in a way that is best for everyone.

This link is for people who are homeless (you're not yet) or at risk of homelessness (which you might be) - http://www.cdss.ca.gov/Benefits-Services/More-Services/Housing-Programs.

More to the point, this might be a good point of contact for accessing wider advice and getting everything untangled a bit. Why not give them a call?

As for getting a copy of the POA, that is next to impossible in most states, because it doesn’t even need to be routinely filed with the court. The document is “carried around” and used by the person who is acting POA, to prove their ability to financial institutions and hospitals to access information and make decisions. A copy of that document will wind up in those confidential records (to protect the Institution for following the directives from someone other than the client/patient), but as these records are inaccessible and confidential, unless you happen to be a co-owner on a bank account, you will not be able to access it.

If you knew the lawyer who drafted the POA, that individual would not be able to help you either (attorney-client privilege).

The only recourse is to challenge the POA legally by filing suit. Was it fraudulently obtained? Does the man still have capacity? Probably not. Your friend likely gave power of attorney to his child. Most people do. This type of suit also is not advisable because the children will turn on you more, and your eventual expenses and emotional anguish could be insurmountable.

I knew a wealthy man who had a wonderful, loving, happy second marriage that lasted many years. His wife was wonderful— appreciated, welcomed by his children. Once he grew sick and elderly and his adult child got POA, that child used the power to legally divorce the stunned wife. The wife was asked to move out after a short time. Unfortunately, since she was not on the deed, she had no legal rights. The POA child did not even allow the heartbroken wife to visit her heartbroken husband at the facility. All for money. The root of all evil.

Once a POA is exercised, that individual has complete and total control. All they need is medical proof of incapacity to defend this change. Their judgment and decision-making completely and totally legally replaces that of your friend. It’s important to make sure your own POA is not given to someone who you don’t fully trust.

Gently call the POA and say, “I’ll be coming through town and I’d like to drop by with a card for my friend.” Don’t be surprised if they tell you no. If they do let you visit, it likely will be supervised.

I’m sorry.

I hope everything is better for you. You have been in my thoughts.

Sassafrass, I think you need an advocate for *you*. This is why.

It seems probable that you have had some kind of label stuck on you. From the point of view of the APS people in your friend's county, as long as he is safe they just don't have the time or the authority to stop and think independently about what you're trying to tell them.

If you ring them and try to stay neutral and you succeed in keeping your cool, they will be polite and they will brush you aside.

If you ring them and lose it, because they're brushing you aside, they will be confirmed in their prejudices and they will probably refuse to take your calls.

You can't win that way.

But what you can do is: write down an account of events, keeping as far as possible to dates, facts, numbers. Then go and get advice from a pro bono lawyer or a citizen's counsellor - you can look for information about services like these at your local library or online.

Somebody who knows the system and understands how the processes work can advise you on getting a formal enquiry registered. And more to the point, they can also advise you on your own next moves, too - how are you managing with work and your home and the other things that were going on?

I see you are from CA it's completely illegal for them to lock you out before you've been legally evicted. 30 years is long enough for you to have established residence. You said it's going to court soon? Did they serve you? In this state unless you are doing something illegal out of the house you should have gotten a 60 day notice to vacate. They don't need a reason to evict you here but it is absolutely illegal for them to change the locks. Even if you don't have any type of written rental agreement. Did you answer the eviction? If i missed something in another post i appologize but among my many thousands of different careers i flipped houses in the 2,000nds with a couple of friends we got greedy and didn't get out before the real estate crash in 2007, 08 and got stuck with 11 houses we couldn't give away much less pay for so we rented out the rooms. I insisted we do it by the book and i basically became a pro so I really do know what i'm talking about. CA is one of the most tennant friendly states in the country. We had one tennant change the locks on us and it took us almost 6 months to get her out. I am sorry about your friend not sure there is much you can do about that but you were illegally thrown out. Before you go to court gather as much as you can as far back as you can with the address and your name. Does'nt have to be bills just mail or things like your drivers license that has the address of the house on it. Unless I missed something like you were operating a prostitution ring with underage drug addicts out of the house. You will be let back in the house and they will have to give you a long time plus pay you back rent for the time they had locked you out. You were basically exchanging your caregiving services for rent. i would also call legal aid or better yet find a real estate att. most will give you a free consultation for an hour. But forget about your friend for a while and focus on your illegal eviction.

It's so sad. I couldn't feel more sympathetic with how painful it must be to know someone for so long and have this kind of friendship and then turn round one day and find it's all been "disappeared."

It isn't even that I don't have sympathy with the family's point of view and their priorities. But it's such a terrible sign of the times that they're too scared or selfish or busy or whatever to take the time to understand and at least explain, and maybe work out a way forward.

Well! - never say never.

I really wish you had lived there. That got my blood pumping. You said someone else is living there already. Could they maybe be pissed at the maintenance lady you said lived there with him? Have you spoken with her?