Has anyone gotten a letter of incompetence from the doctor to get POA? And what was the reaction from the loved one?

I don't know the answer but I am interested to find out too. I need POA for my mother.
Hopefully someone with answers will chime in.

No no no -

POA can only, ever, be given by the person for whom it is held; and that person must be mentally competent to do so.

The point about needing certification of a person's incompetence is to do with when a springing DPOA is to come into force; or when it can be used to override the wishes of the person for whom it is held. Your parent creates a DPOA in 2010, say. For eight years it sits in the filing cabinet, not needed. Then your parent goes off his trolley, his doctor agrees, you follow whatever registration or execution process applies in your locale, and the DPOA comes into force. Like that.

So. If your parent has not created a DPOA (or any other kind) and is now incompetent, you have missed the boat. You can apply for guardianship, or you can hobble along making the best of things - guardianship is better but more expensive, and for that you would need evidence of your parent's mental incapacity.

Countrygirl, you have the additional complication of your mother's husband. Does he not agree with your mother's diagnosis or something? What does he want to do from here?

Agree with what CM says.

What would happen if you simply removed her credit cards from her posession?

Just what I was wondering too, Countrymouse! To refer to the man as ‘her husband’ and not dad or stepdad kind of implies he’s a recent ‘husband’ and isn’t exactly held in high esteem. Possibly the husband doesn’t want to be cut off from his money privileges. After all, one of the first signs that my mother not being ‘herself’ was she could no longer even write a check, never mind keep up with the household budget!

So who’s paying the bills (out of mom’s money)? If I’m offensive I apologize but I’ve seen so much skullduggery go on when the time comes to address financial issues concerning mental competence.

Ugly behavior happens regularly!!

I never had to register or execute my DPOAs. I live in NJ. No one, not even the Bank questioned it. The one company that did was Prudental for some shares Mom had totaling 6k. They wanted me to take the POA to a lawyer and on his letterhead say that the POA was still enforceable. Because the cost of this would be mine, I chose not to do it. When she pasted, a Medallon was enough and they had no problem putting the shares in my name.

Regarding docs letters of incompetence....

Care facilities may want a letter from the doc stating granny cannot care for herself. In obvious cases, they don’t usually require it. The doc may want an exam or he/she may just issue the letter based on previous observation.

Guardianship process will require at least one doc to perform competency exam, usually on forms required by the state. This is a sit down with granny, 30 question test.

Sounds like country girls needs to go the guardianship route. Cannot get POA  if person is uncooperative or incompetent.

CG asked about consequences from loved one......

My parents just had the 30 question SLUMS exam for guardianship proceedings. It was conducted by a nurse practitioner in their assisted living facility. They both scored very low.

I can only guess how they reacted. I wasn’t there, thank god.....But I haven’t heard a word about it from either as neither has much short term memory. But ya never know when it might pop up!

Windyridge, I do think Mom would forget, but that stepfather wouldn’t let her, if I forced the POA..they frequent the Casinos and he has no watch on her and she swears she didn’t go back 3 times for cash..and if I bring it up, he takes her right back as if to stick it in my face..I harbored no ill will towards this man before Mom got sick, but since then, I’ve seen a nasty narcissistic side to him.

Country, you can’t force a poa. Your mom would have to agree.

This sounds like a bad combination........Old folks, dementia, jerk hubby, casinos.....

I’m thinking that someway you’d better get control of mom’s money. Easier said than done, but They could easily blow it all. Casinos love this type of crowd and will pick them clean.

Countrygirl I hate to butt in again but you really don't seem to be getting this. You CAN'T force a person to give you power of attorney. No matter how many mental status tests they fail, or might fail if they didn't have help from an accomplice.

It sounds as though the stepfather feels that you are interfering, instead of helping. It would explain why he seems determined to defy you.

If money is the issue, you all three need to sit down and look at it in black and white. This isn't about you wanting to control your mother's spending. It's about their financial reality. Avoid being confrontational about their behaviour, because you need them to focus simply on:

This is what you've got coming in

This is how much you've got going out

What do YOU want to do about that?

If you've got the information to hand, try putting it down on a nice clear sheet of A3 and make a little presentation of it, maybe.

My Mother had a Springing POA which means we had to get a Doctor to say she was either physically or mentally incompetent before the POA would go into effect. I don't recommend this type of POA... it can get complicated.

Sometimes what will work to get the very reluctant to prepare necessary documents is to explain to them what would happen if the very important POA is not in place. If they become unable to care for themselves some crisis will eventually happen where the state would take emergency guardianship. Would they rather a family member make the difficult decisions or the state? Then again, you cannot reason or explain to dementia.

Countrymouse, I have out everything in writing with both present..Stepfather always says what we want to hear, but turns around and does the exact opposite..A POA has been drawn up, just not invoked..it states If she’s deemed incompetent, 2 letters from her primary care doctors stating such incompetence would invoke the POA..My question was if anyone has gone the route against the LO wishes, what are the results? I go to her house once a month to make sure her bills are paid and have access to all her accounts online. She has refused to take credit cards and ATM cards out of her wallet..If I did this without her knowledge all holy hell would break loose...I’m torn...

So. There is a springing POA and you have the documentation to spring it, right?

I think you need to consult with the the attorney who wrote this document. It seems to me if you have evidence of your mother's incompetence and don't take control, you are being....er....irresponsible.

Being POA doesn't equate with being popular, or liked. Talk to the lawyer.

Countrygirl, I had POA that required a dr to sign off. So after Dad fell and was in rehab, I asked that dr to sign off. Later, I asked his neuro for a letter (just back-up). I didn't talk to Dad about it, just went to his house, got important stuff and took care of business. Later, esp when he was told he shouldn't ever drive again, it was an issue. He would fall just trying to get into his car, so I decided to sell it. He didn't like it, but I told him that I couldn't take care of him and his personal business if I had to fight him on every issue. It was harsh, but I said I wouldn't just be a servant, cleaning up messes he could get into. The option was to work with me or I would vacate the POA. Lots more to it that I won't go into here, but that's how it went. He was mad, siblings were mad, his lady friend was mad, but lady friend was the only one helping, while taking care of him (driving across town to his house 3 days/wk for 1 1/2 yrs, in my home for 6 months, & visiting him in MC every day for 8 months) took over my life for 3 years until he passed.  Dad was ok with me pretty quickly, but sibs ...another story. Still lots of hard feelings between sibs and me, so be sure you've got the guts to withstand the pressure if you invoke your POA.

Countrygirl,
What’s the big picture?
What’s the plan for step dad or mom’s husband?
Do you manage his income and/or savings as well? Does he handle his own finances? Does he have health issues? Does he have children? If so, are they involved? How long has your mom been married?
Do they live in mom’s home, his home, co-owned?
Does he have a POA?
Do you see him as a caretaker of your mom at some point? Does he help her with her medication, dr appointments now?
If she needed home health or a caretaker in the home would he object?
You may need to discuss mom’s situation with the elder attorney and speak with the authority of the law before you explain upcoming changes.

With an incompetent person you need guardianship. A person that is deemed incompetent cannot legally sign documents, including those for POA. If you have a letter of capacity from the doctor you can file for guardianship. Some areas require two letters of capacity. POA should be decided while the person is still competent, and is illegal to do so if they are not.

If a person is legally incompetent they can't execute a POA. Someone needs to go to court to be appointed guardian. The court will enlist the opinions of physicians re the person's legal competence.

Durable POA would have spared you this one., since it is active upon signing. you wouldn't need to go through that. (proving anything) I have these things and am experiencing my mother going off her rocker. Agree with everyone else. Sounds like she is not going to like being told what to do and also that her husband is not acting in her best interest - does he not realize he will probably be responsible for her unpaid bills? Have you seen any paperwork at all? Perhaps the husband has some or doesn't want you to see what they have . ? that or he is enjoying some of her money?

seek advice from elder lawyer

Thanks for all your responses...He is her caretaker now, but doesn’t go beyond medication and getting her to Dr. appts..and yes, I do think he helps himself to her money now and then..no proof, just a hunch. I travel 2 hours once a month to make sure bills are payed and clean a bit for her..He has 4 sons, but none of them are much involved with his life..They will both be 85 soon.. Mom is in great physical health but her mind, not so much. I just want her to be able to afford herself the best care she can have. He is in fair health but has had heart problems in the past. But at the rate they spend, it’s looking more and more like that won’t be possible..I also have 3 other siblings, I’m the youngest at 60, but they are little or no help or moral support..I live the closest, 100 miles away from mom. I will continue helping as much as I can, but the gambling situation just seems hopeless to control at present..again, thanks for any and all suggestions

Going back to what BB said, yours is a springing POA? And you are clear about *how* to get the necessary declaration(s) of incompetence where you are, just not about whether to or not?

It leaves you with two disagreeable options: unpopularity with your mother and stepfather on the one hand; or irresponsibility and financial nightmares on the other. Not an enviable choice. But only one is consistent with the correct fulfilment of your POA. Sorry :/

Hmmmm.... I completely get why you'd need to duck and cover if you lifted your mother's credit cards when she wasn't looking. But how about if you were to get a whole new one with a much stricter limit on it and persuade her to swap her tatty old ones for it? Tell her it's for simplicity, or something.

Here is the sad truth that I learned with my dad. As long as they are married there is no such thing as his or her money. It is theirs, period.

Legally married makes him, her nearest next of kin, period.

Even if the doctor said she is incompetent, unless you could prove he was endangering her life, he would most likely get guardianship. Spending all of their money is not considered endangering. I checked into all of this when I ended up with my dad, broke and sick near into death. Oh so sorry, they were married so nothing anyone can do. I know how angry and frustrated I was, it's like a get out of jail free card. Then I stopped myself from going crazy with 1, he picked her, knowing what she was, 2, he would still be with her if she hadn't split, 3, I can not pay the consequences for his choices, even if that means some he'll hole facility paid by Medicaid because they spent it all.

If it only increases when you try to intervene, STOP, let them dig there own hole. Not easy to step back, I know. When the house is a mess, well maybe you can hire someone to take care of that, bills aren't paid, gosh I hope you find a way to pay all the extras because of late pay. If any of it ever comes up, if not don't bring it up yourself. You have no power as long as her husband is still alive. You will not be responsible for their unpaid debt, let it go. You have seen how it is.

Mom obviously trusts this man and since he is there day in and day out she will always listen to him over you. I know it sucks. Just be ready to help her when "the" call comes.

I used to work at a lawfirm and we prepared POAs all the time in estate planning, naming someone other than the "new spouse" which has a lot to do with the POA origin. Incompetence letters for court issued POAs were never an issue. The issue in your case is you vs. husband and the Court will scrutinize why your concern is valid. You may have to bite the bullet on this countrygirl3. I see having to go to court and request a judge to sign off and if husband objects, then whose money is whose matter will arise. Isn't the money issue falling on her and her husband? Not sure of your concern, unless its "inheritance" or future medical needs... Best of luck

The way I'm understanding it and I may not be following properly, you have a POA which allows you to take care of things with her approval and has a clause for allowing you to take over if she is deemed incompetent by her doctors. You have been operating under the first scenario taking care of details once a month (bills etc) and are realizing that she is less competent and that isn't working as well anymore. Obviously she and her husband knew the time might come when you would need to take over more, exclude her from decisions in her best interest, because they were both present and agreeable when the POA (with clause) was drawn up. In a simple world, though not necessarily pleasant, you were trusted to know when that time came with the back up of her doctors and your gut tells you it has arrived. She is bound to give resistance, most people do when they feel control slipping away and as someone else pointed out you aren't with her day in and day out he is. Which brings me to him, I imagine the same can be said for her husband maybe even harder in some ways. They are of a generation where it is the husbands responsibility to bring home the bacon, protect and care for his wife so even though he too went along with the need possibly arising for you to step in, at his core it's probably hard to admit he can't take care of his wife or himself without your help and isn't making good decisions about their finances. But that's where your at and they both saw it coming which is why they gave you (with the doctor back up) the responsibility and power they did. Again when they are alone together living day to day they aren't recognizing how incapable they are or how much help they need, he remembers the days when he had more income coming in, was working and could afford to go to the casino's and loose a little money and neither of them want to give up the one activity they enjoy together, get's them out of the house, around other people and makes them feel young, alive and in control again. I'm over stating here and drifted a bit but I always find it easier to find a better approach or take the heat when I can imagine where the other person is coming from, agree or not, rational or not.

Anyway the way I am understanding it you have the ability to take over your mom's finances and care anyway and were given that ability because she knew it was the rite thing when she was all there and trusted you to be the one. She even gave you the cover of a doctors agreement should she get so bad that she resisted. I know your real concern is her reaction and no doubt it isn't going to be open arms but somehow I think the ability to remind her that you are doing what she wanted will help and of course that the doctor agrees as she wanted. As far as the husband goes, on the one hand he agreed and should hear the same reasoning but he doesn't have the same attachment to you, life time of relationship (or does he?) so it's a bit sticker but the fact remains that A) they acted and gave you this power for a reason and B) You are protecting both of them, if you don't do this he will be as responsible for himself and your mother, their care and bills so they are blowing through his money as well. It may or may not help him check himself but even if he does they live together day in and day out, you see them once a month they are going to work each other up about the finance thing every time they run into it until they hopefully get used to it. Be gentle don't fell swoop, do the best you can to keep everything the same on the surface or feeling the same and make more gradual changes if you can but bite the bullet and do it. The sooner you do the more time there is for adjustment and the more you preserve, the adjustment may be important down the road when they need a living situation change just as their trust (I didn't say like) of the decisions you make for her/them. Would it be possible to replace the cards in her wallet with prepaid cards or something with a limit? Maybe a bank account with a card attached that will refuse charges once they reach a certain limit? This way it isn't really you taking money away it's a safer way of keeping her on a budget, making that point where she runs out of money happen, forcing a monthly budget. So if they go gambling and win great they have more to spend but if they loose they can't loose the rent so to speak. If they run out maybe set up a weekly delivery of grocery basics or something so they cant run out of food but no extras. Your going to get push back just try to be as inventive as you can about how you present and implement, make sure you inform her well, like it or not and maybe consider something like the Amazon Show, we recently set one up for my mom and it has been fantastic, we want one for the kitchen as well, because it allows us to be there in a real way and interact with her making it so much easier than phone calls which we also do. I'm thinking more though that it allows you to be there, a part of their day to day more and might help you remind and explain the various things that come up through this, be more a part of the conversation day to day to help buffer the husband whispering in her ear. Also lets face it you are taking over because she isn't competent and probably doesn't remember everything so you will need to talk about the same things when it comes to day to day life and finances a lot. The day is going to come too when her husband can no longer safely take her to doctors appointments don't forget to prepare and lay the groundwork for that. Good luck! You aren't alone.

You live closest of the children and you are 2 hrs away? How attached to the community is she? The day is coming when something will have to give, you will need her closer to you to keep her on her own and frankly even in some sort of AL or NH it will be far easier to have someone local...

My dad destroyed himself financially while in the early stages of dementia. Don't get hung up on the legal situation. Take control of the practical situation. Stop your mom by however you can. If her husband objects and can't see how they are spending more money than she has, that just means he has dementia, too. Sadly, ability to handle finances and understand simple budgeting is often the first thing to go. It's not necessarily that your Mom doesn't WANT to live within her budget, it could be that she fundamentally doesn't understand HOW to live within a budget.
I finally threatened to abandon my father completely if he didn't allow me to pay his bills. After several fits and starts, we now have a system where I dole out cash several times a week and, when he spends it, it's gone until the next scheduled 'pay day'.
There is a great cash card that's designed specifically for this situation. It's called True Link. That worked for a while with my dad, but he got to the point where it had to be even simpler than that. Cash requires very little high-level thinking.

Yes I was able to get both POA for medical and financial. DO BOTH asap. I’m SO glad I did... I had to get TWO letters from her regular doctor, and one from geriatrics doc. There was no reason to tell her about the letter. She never asked.

Countrygirl, you have not said what Mom was diagnosed with. If she was not found incompetent at that time, it is still possible that she may still be competent enough to understand that she is asking for you to manage her financial affairs -- and could sign off on a DPOA, if she still understands enough to know that you are her daughter and she needs financial help. You might ask a local attorney, and get an appointment with her there. The atty should ask your mom some simple questions before allowing her to sign.

But, it also looks like your mother may resist and/or step-father may interfere. Then, your hands may be tied.

I am sorry you are in this position. It is her husband who is, at this point, the one that is most legally responsible for taking care of her, and there could be a difficult situation if he and/or she do not want your help.

Countrygirl13;

It was not clear in your original post, and many have chimed in saying you cannot get a POA after the fact, but from what I have read, you already HAVE the POA, set up prior to the diagnosis, you just are reticent to invoke it (mostly because of her husband?) "A POA has been drawn up, just not invoked..it states If she’s deemed incompetent, 2 letters from her primary care doctors stating such incompetence would invoke the POA." I state this mostly in the hopes that others might read this before chiming in more about how you cannot get POA after the person is declared (I suspect many just responded to your post, and did not read the subsequent updates.) The doctor letters are needed to back you up in invoking it - YOU just have to start using it, nothing prevents that once the doctor letters are in hand.

Not having to deal with a spouse, I am not sure how that works (the attorney who drew up the documents could answer some of the questions for you - I would seek advice from his/her office.) It sounds like there would be no interference from any children of either of them - typically POA is only contested by any family members who want to be a pain in the butt (in your case, hubby)! Only one of my brothers is also POA, but neither brother gets involved in any of the financial stuff unless I ask for input from both of them (I think he's probably happy to let me handle this, as he cannot even handle his own correctly!)

Questions for you:

Do they own their residence and if so is there a mortgage to be paid
or just RE taxes and maintenance?
- if they own a home, you would have to ensure some of her
funds are available to pay her share of bills for it.
- if they rent, you would still need to ensure funds are
available for payments as well.
- if you can separate their funds, I recommend her "share"
be paid from HER account, not feeding it into any joint account(s).

What are their sources of income (SS, pensions, etc)
- there are possibly ways to separate her income
- again, with a spouse, I would seek legal advice, but...
- while seeking advice, explore options via SS and pension to
see if you can request representative payee

Do they have joint accounts or are they separate?
- if their account(s) are joint, see my other suggestions.
- From some of your comments it sounds like they are not
joint accounts, if he is sending her to the ATM to withdraw money!

Without knowing the answers to the questions above, it is more difficult to make suggestions. However, at least in the case of SS you CAN apply to be representative payee. No guarantee they will approve, because there is a spouse, but there is no real cost involved (time, gas and possibly parking, but SS does not charge you to request this.) They DO have specific rules about how SS funds can be used for the recipient, and taking money to gamble is not one of them!

Again I don't know how having a spouse would impact these processes, but perhaps if you can delve into the account(s) and show the withdrawals and shortage of funds as a result, as well as use the medical confirmation of her impairment, it might bolster your request(s.) Contact a local SS office to see about applying for representative payee (I DO recommend calling a local office - calling the main SS number can put you into a loooonng hold!) I had to do this mainly because I needed to change address for any documents, in particular tax related paperwork, as mom was moved to MC. In reality, if you read their comments on how funds may be used, what we do with POA is NOT acceptable to SS, yet many are not aware of this and just use POA because "it works." What this does, if approved, is ensures HER SS is sent to you for her benefit. It requires setting up a new account, with you as representative payee - no other monies, no other "owners", mom has no access. The first payment comes as a check, but once the account is set up, you can request electronic payments. You and ONLY you have access to this account. There are rules about what SS can be used for and requires at least a yearly accounting of how the funds are spent (keep good records!), but it would prevent him from having her access her money for stupid things like gambling!

If she also has any kind of pension, you can explore a similar avenue. Our mother has a federal pension, compliments of dad, but they also have their own rules about being representative payee. Note that any federal entity does not care what kind of POA you have. They have their own rules and paperwork to enable you to take over. Same for VA benefits, but if she remarried, and new spouse was not a war-time veteran, this won't apply for you. I don't know about "regular" pensions, however you could contact the payer, if there is one, and find out what the process is to take over. It took me 2 years (her former primary care doctor did not provide the letter he promised, which was most of the delay) to finally get the right magic words for getting the federal pension process done! Fortunately we were all on her account and having POA I was able to take over managing the finances via her account while she was still living in her condo. She was not blowing through money, but was making mistakes in payments, so it was time to take that (and the car) away.

As for any credit cards - you can contact the CC company and find out what their process is for canceling the card(s). In our mom's case, she only had one CC (Discover) and an ATM card for a local bank (she did this to have access more locally to money.) I had to mail a copy of the POA (some banks can be a real pain about these) to Discover, handled the bank and CU in person, with POA and mom in tow. Once I started taking over, I switched her SS to the main account at a CU and closed this bank account, which took care of the ATM card. She did not have one with the CU. The only thing Discover would not allow me to do was have online access to her account. I let her keep it as she was not abusing it, but I did request they drastically reduce the limit to avoid anyone taking advantage of her. Once we moved her, I used the option to "freeze" the account for now, rather than closing it, in case we ever needed it for some reason. It remains frozen for now, but I know I could close the account using the POA. Obviously your mom might be angry when she tries to use any of the cards and they don't work. She can call them and request reopening, but you can at least try to close or restrict them. Although it is none of their business what her medical condition is, you may need to back up the POA with those doctor notes which declare incompetency. That might be enough to prevent changing or reopening the account(s.) It will not, however, prevent her opening any new cards. An option there is to freeze her credit reports (I did this for my own credit, because the attorney office sent my SS out via email!) I do not know what process you might have to go through with them as you are not her - you would have to call them and find out what they require, if they would even let you do that for her.

All of the possible changes will protect her income and assets, but it will not stop him from wasting money, getting other CCs in his name, etc. However, you have been managing, at some level, her expenses, so you have a better idea of what the necessities are. If you have access to the actual bills in her name, get the mailing address changed to your address (I did not even need the POA for this task!) Although he could still get them into huge debt, perhaps she might not be held responsible for this if something happened to him? That would be better answered by a legal expert. Typically a spouse can be held responsible for debts incurred by the other person, but certainly not YOU, however a legal expert could let you know if she would be held responsible for his debts if she is declared incompetent.

Anyway, to sum up, I would seek some legal advice from the attorney who drew up the POA paperwork. If he/she is not an Elder Care attorney, you may need to get more advice from one who knows more about these issues (especially if they are blowing through all assets - this can impact Medicaid eligibility if it is ever needed!) You could also request guardianship via the courts (the attorney may recommend this), however this costs money, and dear old hubby could contest it, costing even more money!! Her funds could be used to pay for this, IF there is any available, which it sounds like there is not if they are blowing any budgets. Given this can be very time-consuming and expensive, I would explore the possibility of representative payee for her and her income/assets.

I did poke around a bit - still defer to SS and/or legal advice, but if you can get enough ducks in a row, SS says:

Source is ssa.gov/payee/LessonPlan-2005-2.htm#WHONEEDS (there is a LOT of info on this page.):

"We ask you to provide adequate information describing your responsibility for the care of the beneficiary. We ask you to provide names of any family members who show interest in the beneficiary. We also check our records to determine if you have previously been a representative payee and if there were any problems with your prior performance as payee."

If you can show he is contributing to blowing her funds... they may agree with assigning you! Again, they have specific rules about how funds are used and if you can show enough, they might grant you this - he would likely be contacted as having "interest" in a family member (I know they sent notice to mom, however being in MC, the staff just gives her mail to me!) and she would be notified as well, so he could try to contest it. Get all your info lined up first, as much as you can to substantiate assigning you rather than him!

I suggest you call an attorney and get good legal advice. The courts can appoint a POA if they think it's necessary.