My mom refuses to sign the assisted living application forms and is not mentally cognizant. Should her POA sign and be the person responsible?
She is no longer eligible for services in the independent living section of the nursing facility. She is getting more and more forgetful and is very paranoid and doesn’t trust anyone including her children and thinks that we are moving her to assisted-living ourselves even though it is the facility that requested that she be evaluated and moved to a higher level of care. The administrators did talk to her after the evaluation and told her that she needed to be moved to assisted-living and she was agreeable, but wants to do it on her own timeline and is therefore refusing to cooperate within the timeline we were given which is 10 days. She won’t sign the required papers, and we were told that the POA could sign in her place on all the papers, however the line we sign on says “applicant/responsible party”.
I don’t understand the implications of “responsible party” and want to make sure I’m not getting us into some kind of legal dilemma by signing these papers ourselves.
26 Answers
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I think it is probably as it says, either the person themself signs or the person acting legally on their behalf (POA or Guardian). But no harm in checking! Especially if legal recourse & financial implications are at stake.
Is the POA 'active"? Eg an enduring POA? Or is it the springing POA type that's springs into action when capacity is lost? If so, is there written confirmation from Mom's Doctor to confirm that? Personally I would want to be crystal clear on the POA powers before signing.
If this wasn't real life - a serious & stressful situation.. I could imagine Bugs Bunny doing his gangster persona "Hey listen here Mrs, we can do this the EASY way or the HARD way... what'll it be?"
Mom is fighting for her power here. If there is a way to present the outcome as the 'choice she wants' above other options, I think you have a better chance to have her sign willingly. Eg this private room just became is available. I know it's earlier than you may have liked, but like a good sale item - sometimes you have to grab it before someone else does!
A: the legal issues:
1) Whether you can force your mother against her will may depend on the wording in your POA/MPOA about when they ‘kick in’. If they only operate when Mother is no longer being legally competent, you may need a medical diagnosis before you can use it against your mother’s wishes.
2) Ils and Als have their own contracts and rules about criteria and ‘rights’ to stay. My guess is that they could discharge her if she doesn’t meet their terms, and that they wouldn’t be stopped by the ‘unsafe discharge’ terms that apply in NH and Hospitals. If they are offering her appropriate accommodation in AL, those ‘unsafe discharge’ rules might not apply anyway. However that’s something to check.
B: the practical options:
3) You wondered whether it would be better to give M longer to adjust, in a place she is familiar with. Perhaps it’s clear that is no longer an option, and it probably wasn’t a good idea anyway.
4) You can try Beatty’s suggestion, effectively to talk her into it. Tell her that AL is so expensive that it’s a much higher status option, and her IL neighbours will be jealous. Make her think it’s a ‘win’ for her, not a loss of her power. Good luck with that, it’s definitely best.
4) If that doesn’t work you can explain to her that the AL will not keep her and that she has no-where else to go. She will have to be assessed by a psychiatrist to decide that she has dementia and is no longer legally able to make her own decisions. That will bring the POAs into effect, and she will be moved whether she agrees or not - Beatty’s ‘Bugs Bunny’ method.
5) Mother will probably be horrified and furious at the prospect of a forced assessment followed by a forced move. If possible give her a way to talk herself out of disagreeing, to save her dignity. For example, ask her what she dislikes about the move, and see if you can offer ways to overcome problems (whether reasonable or not). See if there is any advantage you can bring up (eg the food is better – whether true or not). Ask her to start working out what furniture she will take to her new room, and whether she will need extras. Perhaps she will want new curtains, because the walls are a slightly different shade. Just keep talking about it as a done deal – she WILL be moving. If it will help, cry and tell her how upset you are. See if she can get to see it as a favor to you because of how worried you are, and she is agreeing to it for your sake. She is such a good mother, she will put her daughter's interest first. Blah blah blah etc.
5) Talk your strategy through with your brother, the co-POA. You both may guess better than me about how to flatter mother, and you need your stories to take the same line.
And even more good luck! Yours, Margaret
I would check with a lawyer, but if you sign "Mary Smith in her capacity as POA for Dorothy Smith" and cross out "responsible party", you are probably good to go. But IANAL.
Great suggestions by the posters. I will only add that I hope that you get this situation sorted out as quickly as possible.
I have asked how people wanted me to sign. The majority was my name followed by POA. In some instances, I wrote her name with me under it and POA. I always wrote POA after my name when doing things for Mom and my nephew.
if you feel uncomfortable signing ask for a statement with the facilities letterhead that you will not be held financially accountable. Make sure they sign it as well as you.
as others have said, I signed my name (a million times) and wrote POA for and my parents name. I spent hours doing the paperwork as there was teo of them.
my best to your Mom and to you
My POA for my mom got activated this past spring. So when I finally made the hard decision to move her from my house (after 7 years), I did all the paperwork with the facility in advance as her POA and she just had to go along with what I'd decided. I don't like the way that sounds but it was necessary and it was the only way that it would happen. Otherwise, if you ASK them to sign, they can say no when they actually don't have a choice.
Best of luck.
If she is not cognizant then she legally can not sign a contract. (I am surprised that the facility would allow someone that is not cognizant to sign a contract)The POA would sign on her behalf and indicate on the paperwork that it is being signed by the POA.
They provide enrichment programs for dementia.
It is inconceivable to me that anyone is limited to a restrictive setting based only on a diagnosis. I’m glad I don’t live in CA and sad that my sister does. Is the information I’m given about dementia diagnosis dictates placement in locked memory care unit?
Last year I was having some health issues and my daughter wanted me to come to California to (maybe) live with them. Everything was perfect there. The food, the care, their home, etc. But they determined that I had dementia (without any physical or mental indication) and treated me like a child. I couldn't make any of my own decisions or help them in any way. They whispered behind my back and I felt lonely and rejected. They thought they were treating me like a queen. After three long months, I came back to my home in Wisconsin and plan to stay here now. They weren't being disrespectful, they thought they were doing what should be done. At home, I had myself tested for dementia and I'm fine. I do my own housework and even my banking and taxes. I love to cook, and I still drive to town for groceries and visit friends. They have lived in California for over 30 years now, and even tho we visit yearly and talk on the phone, they don't know about older people and their ways. They meant well and I love them, but I need to make my own decisions, and I'm glad they respected me for that. Just think of how miserable I would be at their home for the rest of my life. I think a lot of older people are forced into a life they don't want. No wonder the elderly get depressed and lonely. I hope this helps people realize that the elderly have feelings too. Let THEM make choices, too. YOU wouldn't want to be told what to do, either!
By Mom's Daughter, as Power of Attorney"
That's how you sign it.
Remember, if Mom is not competent, she can't legally sign ANYTHING, so don't invoke the POA her but not in other places like her bank. You should be taking over her finances entirely and have documentation that she can't handle them.
If it were me I'd take her home with me until I could find her the place she wanted to stay. Even then you must follow through and check on her in person as much as possible. Don't let them abuse your mom!
That being said, your Mom needs an ally. It sounds like everyone is being defensive and I see how she would feel like they are siding against her. She needs to feel like you are on her side. Something to the effect of "Yeah I don't think you need that Mom, but at this facility that is what they are saying. Lets see how it goes. You might like it. If not, we can figure out something else."
Most likely, she is between care needs and this facility wants her to move to AL so they don't have to work so hard. OR so they can make more money. Or, they truly see her needs. Most of these places are greedy.
There are options. You could have someone come in and assist her with what they won't. I know someone bridging care in that way, and it works for now. Another option is an Adult Family home, where they have different levels of care all mixed. Find a good one, though!
Or of course have her in her home or one if her children's hones, and bring in care.
Good luck and God bless!
This is probably a Senior Community where you start out in Independent living meaning you can take care of yourself. Assisted living/Memory care where you need help with some or all of ur ADLs. If you eventually need 24/7 care then you are placed in the LTC section.
This woman's IL has said she is no longer independent. She needs help with her ADLs and that service is not given on an independent level. If she bought into this Community she probably signed papers saying she would abide by the rules. One rule being that she will need to go to the AL/MC section if an evaluation shows she needs it. From what I read the woman has Dementia and should not be living independently. And they can kick her out. These places are private pay. She is a resident who pays rent. If there is a contract and she will not abide by it, they can say AL or you will need to leave. Its a liability for them if they are aware she needs a higher level of care and do not move her to where she can get that care.
If you have any questions, consult with an attorney.
However, clearly your mother doesn't have the cognitive capacity to make these decisions so another / POA needs to.
I would encourage the family to talk with the facility to speak about these matters with YOU/the family making these decisions. If they continue to 'ask' your mom, they will:
(1) continue to cause her unnecessary (further) frustration, fear and confusion;
(2) slow up the process that is needed (moving).
* If you do not have a MD stating the mental / cognitive state of your mom, you need to get there ASAP.
- Otherwise, your mother may be in a stage of 'limbo' and the facility may (possibly) ask her to leave. Or at the VERY LEAST, it will be ongoing mental, emotional and psychological (and verbal) turmoil for everyone concerned.
Someone needs to take control of this situation and it likely needs to be the POA who has the legal authority to do so.
After you sign the papers / documents, THEN deal with how your mom responds. Don't tell her too much . . .
And as someone here wrote, which is an excellent and compassionate way of supporting your mom through the move / transition:
"... your Mom needs an ally. ... . She needs to feel like you are on her side. Something to the effect of "Yeah I don't think you need that Mom, but at this facility that is what they are saying. Lets see how it goes. You might like it. If not, we can figure out something else."
Get her new room ready ... keep it as close to how her room is now as possible so it looks familiar. (You will need to get her out for a ride or something in order to move her furniture; you DO NOT want her to see this 'move' happening in present time).
- Yes, she may have a fit during this transition. Expect this.
Do not argue with her. Be a reflective listener: "I realize this is a xxx (her words) situation for you. Reflect back what she says so she knows you hear her although do not agree or disagree.
Gena / Touch Matters