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I personally think that wills should be distributed equally. There are ALWAYS sibs who do more for the parent and ones who are literal no-shows. I personally think that wills are simply a division of assets, w/o sentimentality, if possible.
Now the dispersal of items may be looked at in a different way. I've left all 4 of my daughters my rings, and one is getting my solitaire (worth about $4K) while one is getting my star sapphire (worth about $200). I have spoken as group to all the girls and they are all OK with whatever I have chosen.
I don't think kids should be involved in the estate planning at all, if it can be avoided. It's NONE of our business.
My eldest brother robbed my parents blind while he was alive, believing he was simply receiving his "inheritance" early. $200,000?? Mom's will leaves each of us remaining sibs $10,000 each. Maybe. And I have note in the will that states I OWE the estate $1500 for something, I have no idea what. Yes, this angers me--but I'm not going to have a fit over it. It just hurts, b/c I feel like mom & dad are angry with me for something--but I will never know what or why.
While my YB has "cared" for mother for the last 22 years in his home, he has been amply supported by each of the other sibs over the years to the tune of about $5000 a year from 4 of us. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but it's a given we all help out when we can.
When mother's will is read, there are no surprises. Anger at the elder brother who robbed the follks--what's the point? He's been dead for 7 years. Mom lived to regret that terribly.
So, I'm going to say no, it's not reasonable to "reward" some sibs differently than others, unless there has been a loan or a theft from the estate by one of them.
It's not worth the fracturing of the family to do it acc to some kind of reward system.
We did our wills this summer. We DID NOT include the kids in the planning. Our lawyer told us not to bring any of them as it is not their "problem" and won't be for some years.
Some families fracture themselves. Do you really think your brothers didn't fracture your family? You are hurt and don't know why it was done to you. It all surely fractured YOU. But I see your point in not making a fuss.
It's been my experience that there is nothing to be done legally in these situations unless the power-less take assertive steps right at the beginning, before the member(s) of the family likely to do dirty get their chance to set the gameboard up before the rest of the family even know there is a game.
Would there be a way for your mother to reimburse you for caregiving now? A lot can happen between the time an elder is receiving care and when the person eventually dies and the will is read, debts paid, Medicaid, etc.
I heard long time ago that you should never tell anyone what is in your will. That way they can be mad at you after you r gone.
I see your point. It doesn't seem fair that the child who is there for them doesn't get a little more than those who have chosen not to be involved. But I guess thats life. If you are Executor, your entitled to 6% of the net amount before dividing up the inheritance. All debts are paid first.
I wouldn't encourage. I like what Midkid said about maybe leaving something, like a ring, just to you. But, I would want that in writing. Then the others can't say you stole it. You could encourage a codicle to be added to the will. This is a list of names and how the person wants their personal belongings distributed.
In my opinion, wills should absolutely NOT be used to compensate a caregiver. And caregiver absolutely SHOULD be compensated. The compensation should happen while the care is being given, on a monthly basis. What is left, if anything, can be divided equally, if that is what the parent wants.
I agree 100% with Jeanne that care provided should be paid for through a care agreement.
Changing a will to compensate one more than another would be difficult for most parents to do. And if they live long enough there may be nothing left to inherit.
Yes--all these "distributions" are done in the will. The girls got a chance to "choose" what they wanted. I have nothing of great value, and they do not look to our passing as being "payday". So yes, the girls all know exactly what they will receive upon my death, as far as "tokens". Some of my gkids have asked for specific things and I made a list of those, too.
Wills and trusts change. What we planned in '18 may be very different in, say '22. 2 of our kids are Drs and make well over a half million a year. We're very middle income people and saved for retirement with the belief we wouldn't have SS. Looks like we will, so great, we'll have $4K more a month than we planned.
I have very mixed feelings about viewing a will prior to a person's death. My mother TOLD ME to read hers. I think she wanted me to see that $1500 "bill", which, BTW, is worthless, as it's not notarized and just scribbled on a piece of paper. I think she just wanted to hurt me. My sister was "loaned" $70K some years ago with the proviso she pay it back, but she would not stand to inherit anything. Well, she was forgiven the debt (still owed well over $50K) and now will receive her 1/5th. It's HARD and it's HURTFUL to get cut out of, or personally attacked in a will. At least I know what to plan for, if mother ever dies.
My hubby and his mother are no longer speaking. She has cut him out of her will. Yet, he is the executor anyway. This will prove interesting. He doesn't care and I'm sure he really does, and it REALLY hurts. Better off she left EVERYTHING to a charity, than give it all to her daughter and cut out the 2 sons who have "disappointed her" so deeply.
If your mother has a CG, she should be compensated NOW. If she wants to leave her a small token of something, that would be fine and sweet, but not a chunk of her estate. It will be challenged and sadness will ensue. Not worth it.
Thank you all for your replies, they have given me much to think about. I actually was surprised that everyone feels the potential inheritance should be divided equally, as a division of assets. I just never felt like my mom should have to pay me to help her after my father passed 10 years ago. He was a very controlling man who handled all the finances. Mom had no idea of the amount of money they had. Before he passed he shared all the financial information with me and took me to meet with several different bankers telling them I would be handling the investments for my mom. He asked me to “take care” of mom because he knew she had no idea how to handle that much money. She was very dependent on him so she was relieved that I was willing and able to help her. It began with managing investments and preparing tax returns. That was about 10 years ago, she’s now in her late eighties and it would take an hour to list all that I do for her now. I am tired, my health is not good. I am the youngest of my siblings and they both are healthy. I go above and beyond to try and give my mom the best quality of life she can possibly have. There was a lot of dysfunction in our home growing up that’s caused myself and my siblings to have complicated relationships. We love each other but don’t necessarily like each other a lot of the time. My mom contributes to that by playing us against each other. My siblings acknowledge how much I do for mom but take advantage of the fact that they know I will no matter what. They do nothing. I won’t go into specifics but several years ago mom kept asking me to take her to the attorney to change her will to exclude one of them. At the time I had not become so resentful and talked her out of it. I still felt that everything should be equal. Since that time moms care has increased exponentially and I have become extremely resentful. Several months ago one of my siblings talked with mom about all that I do for her and suggested she start paying me. I think she did that out of guilt. When mom told me about the conversation I told her I didn’t feel right taking money from her. I handle all her finances and still haven’t paid myself. I know that probably sounds crazy, but I don’t feel she should have to pay me, she’s my mother! If there’s no money left, or it’s a small amount I could be ok with things the way they are. I would still feel resentment but would get over it. But, there’s the potential for a very large sum of money and I’m not sure I could get past the resentment of it being equally divided. I have made many sacrifices and my siblings would not dispute that if asked. If I start taking the monthly pay and the will stays the same then I think I should get paid for the last several years. I’m not sure how mom or my siblings would feel about that. The bottom line is, I feel if I’m going to be compensated it should come from them, not her, and only if there’s money left. I am so confused. My quality of life and health are suffering because of the demands of caring for mom and it just isn’t fair.
You have some thoughtful introspection here. But if you’re going to be resentful about a large sum being equally divided, then why not go ahead and take a payment from your mom as was offered. I get payment from my dad by way of his money paying for my gas for the car and he is fine with it. That amounts to about $90/ month. I too handle his finances but I let a CPA do his taxes and his money pays for that. If you’re doing the taxes, pay yourself what it would cost an accountant to do it. If your health has suffered...you by all means deserve something. For me this way I don’t feel as resentful to my other 3 sisters.
You are very lucky that your sisters acknowledge what you do for your mom and have supported the idea that you should be compensated monetarily for this. I think it's time for you to start paying or 'gifting' yourself from your mom's assets, since she seems to be financially healthy. Don't feel guilty, and of course don't take advantage, but do compensate yourself. And make arrangements for respite care so you can have a break.
I have been there myself and I saw my mother before me with her aunt.
Mom didn't believe in it and shared the inheritance with all the cousins left alive regardless of the Aunt's will.
When my father passed, I was legally the "owner" of all the bank accounts but I divided equally with my sisters because this is what my parents wanted.
This is a tricky subject - be careful or you will fall into "taking care of parent just to get more money." You've heard, it is more blessed to give than to receive? Well, I didn't want compensation for doing what needed doing. I got paid in other ways - I had the full use of my father's car and he paid for the gas and maintenance since I used it to take him everywhere.
With me, paid compensation would have made it a job - and the way I dealt with it was to just do for him what he needed done. Assistance was given freely and when he passed, I had few regrets.
I also agree in theory at least that wills should divide the estate equally, or as the person whose will it is, decides it should be divided. In actual fact, my husband and I live near his parents and have helped them more and more over the years. Now, we are packing up their house so they will move to AL. He has 2 sisters who live 2000 miles away. They are supportive over the phone and could fly in to help but that is not happening. I am finding myself a little more resentful than I expected. Yes, I know, it is not my inheritance, it is my husband's but as the "family nurse", I go to the doctor with them, help them coordinate medical and other issues. We will be responsible for emptying the house, arranging for painters etc and then selling house. My FIL has vascular dementia and is increasingly more confused every month. My husband is the POA so our solution will be, as FIL is less and less able to take care of himself and MIL, and we have to do more and more for them, the POA will make sure to reimburse himself for all expenses related to them and their estate and I may take an hourly salary for time spent going to MD visits, coordinating care, etc. We will keep careful receipts and documentation of time spent, etc to account back to the estate but in this way, we will be able to be compensated for the really huge amount of time spent before the estate is divided evenly 3 ways. As the other siblings don't live here, an outside care manager would need to be hired to assist and coordinate and also outside help would need to be hired to pack them and coordinate this move. I am a professional care manager who does this for a living and I know what the company I work for charges to handle these issues. I don't want to sound mercenary but to "donate" this effort to the estate which then will be divided equally is irritating. My husband does agree. They do have more than adequate assets to pay for their care so we are not taking money they need to live on. We would never consider that. But taking a salary from the estate for services rendered would be a way for a primary caregiver to be paid fairly for their efforts. Not that a child should not willingly help their parents but if the other siblings will benefit from that one person's work by receiving their "share" of the estate, I don't see a reason not to be paid first. It at least partially solves the problem of evenly divided estate in the situation where the effort to care for parents is not equally divided.
Unfortunately, unequal inheritance often is translated by the involved parties into a referendum on was loved best. In my opinion, the best way to go forward is for people to receive compensation for the caregiving at the time it is provided and distribute any remaining estate equally.
No matter how good the reasons for unequal distribution are, it ends up negatively affecting the sibling relationships. If your health is not good and your mother has the money, consider outsourcing some of the jobs you are doing for her.
I honestly believe if a person makes a will when in full competence that must legally stand. If a will is changed when a person is no longer competent, it must not stand and will (or may be) challenged. Things may change, someone may feel they deserve more. But the will's signer has the right to determine where their assets go while they are competent to do so and no other influence can affect that after competence is lost. Or so it is in my state.
dogparkmom: "the POA will make sure to reimburse himself for all expenses related to them and their estate and I may take an hourly salary for time spent going to MD visits, coordinating care, etc. We will keep careful receipts and documentation of time spent, etc to account back to the estate but in this way, we will be able to be compensated for the really huge amount of time spent before the estate is divided evenly 3 ways."
Excellent plan!
gracealways: " there’s the potential for a very large sum of money and I’m not sure I could get past the resentment of it being equally divided. I have made many sacrifices and my siblings would not dispute that if asked. If I start taking the monthly pay and the will stays the same then I think I should get paid for the last several years. I’m not sure how mom or my siblings would feel about that. The bottom line is, I feel if I’m going to be compensated it should come from them, not her, and only if there’s money left."
I think you should start taking the monthly pay. Is your mother even competent to authorize a change in her will? Why shouldn't your pay come from her? Ultimately, it's the same thing as taking from your siblings?
Here's what could happen. You could try and get the money retroactively after your mother is gone, and if someone doesn't want to give it to you, you will be considered as challenging the will, and will therefore get nothing. This is the way my mother's trust reads.
At one point, the attention my mother required was getting to the point of too much, and I mentioned the idea of my getting to the point of wanting to be paid. One of my brothers suggested I be paid before the trust is divided four ways after my mother dies. I have read the trust and know that anyone not accepting the divided-four-ways-equally clause will get nothing. That's what it says. Another brother said he would pay me, but I didn't think it was right for just one of them to pay me. I'd be charging $20/hour. Either they all pay me, or, better yet, my mother pays me.
But of course that will never happen, because I will be subjected to one of her fits and called awful names. She will start the crying/shaking/shaming/blaming.
Fortunately the busy week/s with her subsided back to the normal amount of Dummy Daughter Driving, so it's not been brought up again.
If it happens again, I will bring it up to my mother. If she doesn't like it, she can arrange to pay outside caregivers (agency) to come in, and she will be paying them much more.
One of the very valuable things I've learned from this forum is to get the pay as you do the work. Do not expect people to agree to give you extra money when the estate is being divided because you did the caregiving.
If you are worried about funds not being available at a later date, pay yourself, place the money into a separate savings account and don't spend it. That way your fears of mom not having funds in the future will be alleviated but you will have also been paid from the estate if they are no longer needed. What your sisters say now while mom is living and what their mind set is later when it's time to settle the estate will definitely be totally different. My children are aware of what our wills state and how they are structured but were never had any input on the structuring of it, they were informed after the fact. Evenly distributed between them, held in trust, and follows the bloodline. Very specific, co-trustees, investment firm and child, 1/3 @40, 1/3 @50, remaining balance @ 60. Can be accessed beforehand but avoids the possibility of a grandchild receiving money while too young to handle the responsibility of managing it and it also provides protection from step siblings attempting to place a claim on the entire estate. Letting them know how it is structured is one thing, where important papers are kept (don't forget to include online accounts and passwords) banking accounts,safety deposit boxes, where keys for the box is etc. is very important information they need. If you keep you will in a safety deposit box at the bank I would suggest that the executor of your estate is added as a signer to it otherwise they will have to get a court order to enter the box to retrieve the will and only the will under a bank employee's supervision. They will not be able to remove any other document including life insurance policies until such time that the courts acknowledge that they are in fact the executor of the estate and all paperwork is filed. Saves them time and money during a stressful time. My mother in law had things hidden throughout her home, in the basement, desk, cedar chest,dresser, found it while moving her to our home and preparing hers for sale. Now it's all together and safely stored at the bank. I guess, in a roundabout way I'm saying that you need to look towards the future as well as the present .
Well, I think I may disagree with everyone else here but I do think it's reasonable to leave a greater part of the estate to the sibling that has done the lion's share of the caregiving. How far you want to go in "encouraging" the parent to change the will is another story.
I would agree with JeanneGibbs about compensating the caregiver during the parent's lifetime and not through the will except that sometimes there are no liquid assets and no extra income to do that with. In my mother's case, her savings covered her funeral and little else. She had enough monthly income to pay the bills, barely. Her only assets when she died were her life insurance (minimal), an old car, and personal effects. Less than $10,000 total. Six surviving children. One who provided the majority of care and who is also tasked with managing the estate, such as it is. That would be me. One of my siblings did not bother to see my mother even once during the whole 7+ years of caregiving. I don't feel any obligation to give her an equal share of what little my mother left behind. The others too, with their drive-by visits once a year, where they ate a meal with us (that we provided) and flew back home. My mother didn't leave enough to really argue over, but if she had, I'd be very unhappy having to share equally with those who did nothing for her all those years.
When my dad moved here he had nearly $400,000. It has been slowly whittled down to the point if he lives several more years they may be nothing left because he now pays 10,000/ month for LTC. However, the will states it will be divided 95% 4 ways to his daughters and 5% to his only grandchild. Personally I don’t care if it’s all gone as it’s his money he saved and not mine. That is why I take a small amount now for the things I do for him. Heres my take on wills but then I have no children either. Why should children even inherit their parents money. We have left our estate to two different charities which we believe in. Originally I had it divided equally between my sisters, but then I asked myself "why?" I feel better it is going to something that is going to do some good rather than my siblings vacation or new couch or whatever. So this is an option rather than leave money to people whether they are children or relations.
It's the parent money. They earned it. They can do what they want, give it to kids, give it to charity, give it to the cat. None of anyone else's beeswax.
I would agree with this, except... Except in the case of the caregiving adult child, who has likely sacrificed time, money, and earnings potential to take care of the parent. I did, I know. I likely spent $5,000+ in gas and tolls during my caregiving years, traveling to Mom's to take her to doctors, shopping, errands, and take care of things around her house. I spent money on food and meds regularly that was not reimbursed. When you're the one there who sees the need, stuff comes out of your pocket. It just does. I also could not seek out jobs further than an hour from my mother's home or that would make me unavailable when she needed me. It's a big financial hit. Parents should think about that before they think about leaving everything to charity.
And some people do just that, Harpcat -- leave all their money to charity. I suspect you might feel differently if you had children, particularly if there were normal relationships with those children.
My parents left their trust to be divided equally amongst their four children. If a child dies, that child's children get that portion. If there is no child (and one of my brothers is unmarried with no children), the other three children get his share. That is fair.
My MIL (still alive) has left her estate to be divided amongst her five children and her seven grandchildren). I don't know if the grandchildren get an equal amount to her children. I wish she'd done it the way my parents did it -- children only, but of course that's not my place to say.
Now this is the money part of MIL's estate. And no one knows how much this is. I suspect from what she told me one time that there are annuities to each grandchild woth $15,000. I don't know if her children get more.
Please don't get me started on the house that no one knows what is going to happen to it or the lakefront cottage that she has a life estate in, owned by the five siblings with right of survivorship (uggghhhh....that right-of-survivorship title is horrible!).
I want and need the money from my mother's trust -- while being divided four ways is not going to change anyone's life, I need that money.
Yes. Caregiving is a choice. If a person chooses to quit their job to take care of a parent. ....then that is their choice. It should be done out of love, not greed.
If a person is truly spending a lot of money on caregiving, instead of using the parent's funds, then records should be kept and reimbursement made monthly.
An inheritance should be split equally among children. Some European countries have laws that insist on this equal split among children.
Only a parent with a mental disorder would but a child out of the will.
This is a different question from whether it is reasonable for a parent to divide his or her estate on whatever lines he or she sees fit. The person making or changing the will is entirely free to do so.
But for any beneficiary to "encourage" a parent to do this, even to the extent of giving an opinion, is wrong wrong wrong. Do not be tempted.
I would not agree that giving one's opinion is undue influence, or is a no-no. Undue influence would be if you threatened to stop caregiving unless the will was changed in your favor. Stating your feelings or opinion about if falls far short of that.
I shared my opinions about everything with my mother. And vice versa. I'm sure she knew how I felt about my do-nothing siblings getting an inheritance from her. I never encouraged my mother to change her will, but I did encourage her, at one point, to look into a reverse mortgage so that the bank would take her condo when she died, and I wouldn't have to share the proceeds with my do-nothing siblings.
That didn't actually happen. To move closer to my two older siblings, Mom and I bought a house together, with right of survivorship. I provided the down payment as her condo was still on the market at the time. That was the best outcome re the house, as I can sell it without sharing with anybody. The rest of it, as I said, is small potatoes.
My dad was an attorney who did a lot of estates and wrote a lot of wills during his career. His advice would also be apportion the estate equally. If you want to help your kids, do it while you’re alive. “Give whole younlove so you know where it goes.”
He and his brother were in law practice together and his brother had very poor work habits as well as a terrible anger problem so my dad privately decided to go into practice on his own. My grandfather cut him out of the will to try to get him to stay with his brother, mostly because my uncle did not work hard enough to support himself. My dad refused to be manipulated in this way, which was a result of my uncle haranguing my aged grandad daily to take action against my dad.
Fast forward a few years and grandpa is now mad at my uncle, having reinstated dad in his will. He asks my dad to cut my uncle out of the will. My dad refuses. You don’t punish your kids that way.
You have an issue? Confront them or reward them when you are both alive. If you punish them or reward the, through your will, it only creates enmity among your children, and that is not a legacy you want to leave. You want your family to get along after you’re gone so don’t do anything to drive a wedge.
I have 3 brothers, once now deceased. All three live near my healthy 86–year-old mom. I live a day’s drive away. One brother is always there for her. When there is a problem he calls me. I talk to her daily and she visits us a couple months a year, and we her.
My husband is on disability and she helps us in many ways, using clothes for my teenager, medical bills, etc. But mostly, we just enjoy each other’s company immensely.
My my other two brothers are/were unhelpful but always judgmental in a negative way—anger rather than concerned. I just ignore it. I think it’s guilt. When my dad was bedridden with Parkinson’s dementia, and my mom faithfully cared for him at home, they hardly visited. They have to live with that.
The will is divided three ways (one brother deceased). Our needs are unequal but my mom helps me now and I don’t want any fighting when she’s gone. If she wants me to have something, she notes it or gives it to me now. And I’m not picky. I have the wedding rings and the stuff nobody else wants and that’s fine. My conscience is clear and I have the joy of her company and the great memories.
It should always be split equally. And I agree, especially if you have a large estate, help your kids and other people while they are alive. My grandmother and her brother were given their trusts at 30 years of age. It allowed them a life they would never have had otherwise. My sister's in-laws gifted both their sons a chunk of their inheritance at 40. Due to this they have been able to build successful businesses and 2nd homes, travel and enjoy it with their parents and grandchildren while everyone is fairly young. If you have more than enough for good care, then what is the point of making your children wait. I saw Judge Judy (who obviously has done well) talk about the joy of giving to her children and grandchildren while she and her husband are still alive. And her comment was that she did not want her children waiting for her to die to get their inheritance. If people think this is wrong or callous they are not being honest. This happens all of the time. Especially if someone really needs the money now-and- there is a large estate with funds just sitting there. My observation is that people who have come from money and had wealth help their children early on as they see it as a way to expand the wealth and keep it going, and people who are the first generation to have any money are too afraid to spend or give until they die.
Good luck with that...my father's mother gave everything to her "other son" who did absolutely diddly squat for her while my father slaved away and took her every place and took care of her..what did he get..nothing.
Someone asked WHY my DH was still the executor of his mother's estate since she has "disowned him" and that actually made me laugh.
She goes through these moments where she hates him, but she NEEDS him, so I guess that's why she'll say "I'm cutting you out of my will". Who knows if that really happens--I kind of spoke in a knee jerk reaction way. She has a daughter but doesn't think girls can handle legal stuff.
And to the person who said my family is fractured over "the will"--well, yes, we're fractured but it's for reasons other than a will, of which none of us will receive enough to buy a used car. The brother who ripped off our parents started the "fracture" and the bad choice to move mother and dad in with YB was what caused the problems. BTW, all the sibs will be giving their share of mother's tiny estate to YB as he DID provide "free care" all these years. He doesn't know this.
Our will is written and we have no problem with changing it in time if we feel the kids do not need the money--or if one of us requires FT CG which could conceivably eat up everything. Luckily, our kids get along famously, and not one of them "needs" the money. We may, in 25 years, change it to divide among the g-kids for when they turn 21. Or 30. Or we may give it all away.
A will is NOT a gift. It's NOT a payment for services rendered. I've seen more anger and families fall apart over fairly small inheritances.
IF one of my kids has to step up in the CG dept., they will be compensated as an employee.
Our attorney gave us GREAT advice: "Do you want to leave tons of money behind for your kids or do you want to have a comfortable and secure future for YOU?" Put that way, well, no brainer. I want my kids to be my kids and my CG's to be my CG's, if I need them.
No. Inheritance isn't compensation. Where does that kind of thinking stop? Who was the easier teenager to raise? Who was potty-trained first? Which child cut the grass most often or helped with laundry?
I assume you are asking because your siblings are not providing hands-on care to the extent that you are. That is their choice, as it is yours. You could inform your siblings that you will establish a care agreement that compensates you for your time from your parent's funds. They can then react to that as they choose: agree to the plan, negotiate terms, or pitch in equally to avoid any payment from your parent's funds.
There's nothing but ethics to stop you from trying to persuade your parents to change the terms of their will to give you a larger inheritance. But, however much you may be shouldering the burden of your parent's care, you are doing it willingly and, if you aren't you should address your issues now and either be compensated or get help. Stewing over it and plotting to get what's owed you once they're gone isn't a healthy situation for you, your parent, or your siblings.
Very well said. I mean, think about how your parents would feel if you ask them such a question!
Its all across the board, every one has siblings that don't kick in. Unfortunately it's a given seems like. Put your parents first and do as much as YOU can for them and don't worry about how much or little the siblings are doing or not doing in most cases.
My point is that my dad, as an estate lawyer, always advised parents to leave equal amounts and help kids while alive. It was and still is sound legal counsel.
If you want your kids to “change their ways” by shorting them, it will have the opposite effect, was his legal counsel. It will also cause strife in the family after you are gone. This was his counsel even before his own family strife.
He and my my mom had two kids who are not attentive but they are getting equal shares and I don’t begrudge them. If they got less, I’d have to deal with the fallout and my parents and I want family peace. They will have to live with the knowledge that they could have done more and didn’t and perhaps cojld’ve Modeled something better for their own kids.
This is good advice, BUT how about Medicaid and gifting? The issue of trying to control your kids through money is an excellent point to consider, but not quite the same as reasonable compensation for goods and services.
There is another issue to consider in this discussion. If the care-giving child is compensated through a care-giver agreement as suggested by Jeannegibbs and others, then the payments must be reported on the recipient's tax return as taxable income. Federal and state income tax as well as SS and Medicare tax must be paid. This could amount to more than 30% of the amount paid. If it is not reported, it will be treated as a gift. Of course, a gift could become a problem if Medicaid is needed in the future.
Here is the way that this was handled by someone I know on the advice of her attorney: Her mother wanted to rewrite her will leaving everything to the daughter who was her care manager and cutting the estranged sibling out of the will. The daughter was not comfortable with changing the will, and didn't want to add to her taxable income or have a potential gift issue if Medicaid was needed later. Instead, a portion of the mother's assets (in this case about 20%) was set aside in a CD in the mother's name, titled POD to the caregiving daughter. The mother signed the CD so there could be no question that she agreed to the arrangement, rather than having the daughter sign as POA. The remaining 80% of the estate was to be split equally according to the will. POA takes precedence over a will. The estranged sibling effectively gave up 10% of the estate to the caregiving sibling. Since the CD became an inheritance rather than income, no income or employment taxes were due. Also, if mom had outlived her money, the CD could have been used for her care, which is what the daughter wanted. The additional advantage of this arrangement is that the amount of the CD can be changed at each maturity as the financial and caregiving situation changes without the need of changing a will.
Was the daughter OK for her Social Security quarters? Don't ignore that - we got through the last recession because of Social Security holding firm. No one should be expected to care for a parent and then end up in poverty because they could not work toward their own retirement.
I have to disagree with those who claim that an inheritance should not be compensation. There was an New York Times article dated January 14, 2012 entitled "Bargaining for a Child's Love" that detailed the common practices of caring for elders in the days before Social Security took effect. According to the author's research, it was very much a common practice for one relative to take on the caregiving role in exchange for the promise of the house, land, business, bank accounts, etc. Even when there was no alternative to being cared for by family, the one who stepped up commonly had the promise of an inheritance to compensate them. The idea that all children should share equally was not the governing mentality, at least not then.
Of course, we take care of our parents out of love, not greed. Of course we (or I) want our parents to spend their money on their own needs during their lifetimes, even if it means there won't be a penny left for anyone. Still, if there is money left when the parent dies, I feel the sacrifices of the caregiver should be rewarded before those who have the same blood relationship but couldn't be bothered to help the parent.
But if you wait to compensate the caregiver until the caree dies, then what happens if there is no money left? Paying as you go seems fairer to me. Also, where is the guarantee that the will will not be secretly changed? Promises broken. Guess you are a much nicer person than me. Or much less suspicious. But keep in mind that in the old days, there was no Medicaid and its rules, people generally did not linger on and on with severe medical problems. Whole different world.
gracealways, do you have POA for her estate? One thing that no one has mentioned on this forum is your obvious burned out state of mind. To me, that seems to be a major factor. No amount of money will benifit you if your health is shot, if you're unable to function as a caregiver, or you die before your mother dies. Have you considered placing her in a senior facility? You're her daughter, but there is no written law that says you are responsible for her day to day care, especially at the risk of your own well being. If that's not an option, by all means, take compensation for what you do. If you can no longer handle the situation, look into a good senior facility, or in-home help and/or respite.
My 97 yr old mother recently moved into AL and she is more active now than in the past 4 years. She enjoys her independance. Cruises around the facility with her walker and even goes on the field trips on shopping sprees. I visit at least twice a week and we communicate daily by FaceTime on our iPhones. She's a new woman. I wish we would have made this decision years ago.
Hi, Grace.. Yes, it's reasonable - - but hour parent would need to be mentally competent to be able to create another will - or even a first will. Does someone already having a power of attorney (maybe a durable one) make a difference? I wouldn't know about this.
If she is competent and able, and is happy to do so, then great...
But parents can have tremendously strong feelings of 'fairness' that can't be budged.
If you are a major caregiver or will become so in the future and it will have a significant financial impact on you, then this would be the best place to start, for it's better to start with issues like this first.
If you won't be endangering your own retirement funds and your parent has the funds to pay, perhaps, for a policy that covers all degrees of in-home care, then this would be best for her,even if her estate is heavily depleted.
My parents gave our farm to the sister they chose to live with my mother, my mom retaining a Life Estate meaning she owns the house as long as she lives, even able to rent it out should she needs it prefers to live elsewhere.
Another thing to consider is whether you are willing to have miserable contentious hateful relationships with all your family members after your parent is gone. People even fight over who gets the cast iron skillets & Dutch oven, the freezer, the family heirlooms, even inexpensive things with strong emotional connections...
And is it fair, money considerations aside, if some family lives too far away, has too many family commitments or cannot afford to contribute financially. A mother's love, sense of fairness or feelings that this child or that will need more financial help.
If you were to be the one to have to move in with her, it might not be unseemingly to ask if mama could settle a life estate regarding the home. Or to pay you for days you have to miss work for her appointments...
Lots of things to ponder here before you even open your mouth to your parent.
Maybe better to have an in-person or a video-conference call among the all of you to discuss your parent's needs, now and as time passes. Ask what, in time or funds (if they will be needed) or even "we'd love to have mama live with us"!
If it all pretty much lands in your lap, then can you point out the emotional burnout and financial impact on your quality of life to point out that you really really need commitments.
Mama could pass a month after signing a will that gave proportionate inheritance - and that would not be fair and would be challenged, possibly leaving all mama's money to the lawyers.
Lots to mull over. Same things a good lawyer would point out.
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Now the dispersal of items may be looked at in a different way. I've left all 4 of my daughters my rings, and one is getting my solitaire (worth about $4K) while one is getting my star sapphire (worth about $200). I have spoken as group to all the girls and they are all OK with whatever I have chosen.
I don't think kids should be involved in the estate planning at all, if it can be avoided. It's NONE of our business.
My eldest brother robbed my parents blind while he was alive, believing he was simply receiving his "inheritance" early. $200,000?? Mom's will leaves each of us remaining sibs $10,000 each. Maybe. And I have note in the will that states I OWE the estate $1500 for something, I have no idea what. Yes, this angers me--but I'm not going to have a fit over it. It just hurts, b/c I feel like mom & dad are angry with me for something--but I will never know what or why.
While my YB has "cared" for mother for the last 22 years in his home, he has been amply supported by each of the other sibs over the years to the tune of about $5000 a year from 4 of us. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but it's a given we all help out when we can.
When mother's will is read, there are no surprises. Anger at the elder brother who robbed the follks--what's the point? He's been dead for 7 years. Mom lived to regret that terribly.
So, I'm going to say no, it's not reasonable to "reward" some sibs differently than others, unless there has been a loan or a theft from the estate by one of them.
It's not worth the fracturing of the family to do it acc to some kind of reward system.
We did our wills this summer. We DID NOT include the kids in the planning. Our lawyer told us not to bring any of them as it is not their "problem" and won't be for some years.
It's been my experience that there is nothing to be done legally in these situations unless the power-less take assertive steps right at the beginning, before the member(s) of the family likely to do dirty get their chance to set the gameboard up before the rest of the family even know there is a game.
I see your point. It doesn't seem fair that the child who is there for them doesn't get a little more than those who have chosen not to be involved. But I guess thats life. If you are Executor, your entitled to 6% of the net amount before dividing up the inheritance. All debts are paid first.
I wouldn't encourage. I like what Midkid said about maybe leaving something, like a ring, just to you. But, I would want that in writing. Then the others can't say you stole it. You could encourage a codicle to be added to the will. This is a list of names and how the person wants their personal belongings distributed.
Changing a will to compensate one more than another would be difficult for most parents to do. And if they live long enough there may be nothing left to inherit.
Wills and trusts change. What we planned in '18 may be very different in, say '22. 2 of our kids are Drs and make well over a half million a year. We're very middle income people and saved for retirement with the belief we wouldn't have SS. Looks like we will, so great, we'll have $4K more a month than we planned.
I have very mixed feelings about viewing a will prior to a person's death. My mother TOLD ME to read hers. I think she wanted me to see that $1500 "bill", which, BTW, is worthless, as it's not notarized and just scribbled on a piece of paper. I think she just wanted to hurt me. My sister was "loaned" $70K some years ago with the proviso she pay it back, but she would not stand to inherit anything. Well, she was forgiven the debt (still owed well over $50K) and now will receive her 1/5th. It's HARD and it's HURTFUL to get cut out of, or personally attacked in a will. At least I know what to plan for, if mother ever dies.
My hubby and his mother are no longer speaking. She has cut him out of her will. Yet, he is the executor anyway. This will prove interesting. He doesn't care and I'm sure he really does, and it REALLY hurts. Better off she left EVERYTHING to a charity, than give it all to her daughter and cut out the 2 sons who have "disappointed her" so deeply.
If your mother has a CG, she should be compensated NOW. If she wants to leave her a small token of something, that would be fine and sweet, but not a chunk of her estate. It will be challenged and sadness will ensue. Not worth it.
He asked me to “take care” of mom because he knew she had no idea how to handle that much money. She was very dependent on him so she was relieved that I was willing and able to help her. It began with managing investments and preparing tax returns. That was about 10 years ago, she’s now in her late eighties and it would take an hour to list all that I do for her now. I am tired, my health is not good. I am the youngest of my siblings and they both are healthy. I go above and beyond to try and give my mom the best quality of life she can possibly have. There was a lot of dysfunction in our home growing up that’s caused myself and my siblings to have complicated relationships. We love each other but don’t necessarily like each other a lot of the time. My mom contributes to that by playing us against each other. My siblings acknowledge how much I do for mom but take advantage of the fact that they know I will no matter what. They do nothing. I won’t go into specifics but several years ago mom kept asking me to take her to the attorney to change her will to exclude one of them. At the time I had not become so resentful and talked her out of it. I still felt that everything should be equal. Since that time moms care has increased exponentially and I have become extremely resentful. Several months ago one of my siblings talked with mom about all that I do for her and suggested she start paying me. I think she did that out of guilt. When mom told me about the conversation I told her I didn’t feel right taking money from her. I handle all her finances and still haven’t paid myself. I know that probably sounds
crazy, but I don’t feel she should have to pay me, she’s my mother! If there’s no money left, or it’s a small amount I could be ok with things the way they are. I would still feel resentment but would get over it. But, there’s the potential for a very large sum of money and I’m not sure I could get past the resentment of it being equally divided. I have made many sacrifices and my siblings would not dispute that if asked. If I start taking the monthly pay and the will stays the same then I think I should get paid for the last several years. I’m not sure how mom or my siblings would feel about that. The bottom line is, I feel if I’m going to be compensated it should come from them, not her, and only if there’s money left. I am so confused. My quality of life and health are suffering because of the demands of caring for mom and it just isn’t fair.
Mom didn't believe in it and shared the inheritance with all the cousins left alive regardless of the Aunt's will.
When my father passed, I was legally the "owner" of all the bank accounts but I divided equally with my sisters because this is what my parents wanted.
This is a tricky subject - be careful or you will fall into "taking care of parent just to get more money." You've heard, it is more blessed to give than to receive? Well, I didn't want compensation for doing what needed doing. I got paid in other ways - I had the full use of my father's car and he paid for the gas and maintenance since I used it to take him everywhere.
With me, paid compensation would have made it a job - and the way I dealt with it was to just do for him what he needed done. Assistance was given freely and when he passed, I had few regrets.
No matter how good the reasons for unequal distribution are, it ends up negatively affecting the sibling relationships. If your health is not good and your mother has the money, consider outsourcing some of the jobs you are doing for her.
Excellent plan!
gracealways: " there’s the potential for a very large sum of money and I’m not sure I could get past the resentment of it being equally divided. I have made many sacrifices and my siblings would not dispute that if asked. If I start taking the monthly pay and the will stays the same then I think I should get paid for the last several years. I’m not sure how mom or my siblings would feel about that. The bottom line is, I feel if I’m going to be compensated it should come from them, not her, and only if there’s money left."
I think you should start taking the monthly pay. Is your mother even competent to authorize a change in her will? Why shouldn't your pay come from her? Ultimately, it's the same thing as taking from your siblings?
Here's what could happen. You could try and get the money retroactively after your mother is gone, and if someone doesn't want to give it to you, you will be considered as challenging the will, and will therefore get nothing. This is the way my mother's trust reads.
At one point, the attention my mother required was getting to the point of too much, and I mentioned the idea of my getting to the point of wanting to be paid. One of my brothers suggested I be paid before the trust is divided four ways after my mother dies. I have read the trust and know that anyone not accepting the divided-four-ways-equally clause will get nothing. That's what it says. Another brother said he would pay me, but I didn't think it was right for just one of them to pay me. I'd be charging $20/hour. Either they all pay me, or, better yet, my mother pays me.
But of course that will never happen, because I will be subjected to one of her fits and called awful names. She will start the crying/shaking/shaming/blaming.
Fortunately the busy week/s with her subsided back to the normal amount of Dummy Daughter Driving, so it's not been brought up again.
If it happens again, I will bring it up to my mother. If she doesn't like it, she can arrange to pay outside caregivers (agency) to come in, and she will be paying them much more.
One of the very valuable things I've learned from this forum is to get the pay as you do the work. Do not expect people to agree to give you extra money when the estate is being divided because you did the caregiving.
I would agree with JeanneGibbs about compensating the caregiver during the parent's lifetime and not through the will except that sometimes there are no liquid assets and no extra income to do that with. In my mother's case, her savings covered her funeral and little else. She had enough monthly income to pay the bills, barely. Her only assets when she died were her life insurance (minimal), an old car, and personal effects. Less than $10,000 total. Six surviving children. One who provided the majority of care and who is also tasked with managing the estate, such as it is. That would be me. One of my siblings did not bother to see my mother even once during the whole 7+ years of caregiving. I don't feel any obligation to give her an equal share of what little my mother left behind. The others too, with their drive-by visits once a year, where they ate a meal with us (that we provided) and flew back home. My mother didn't leave enough to really argue over, but if she had, I'd be very unhappy having to share equally with those who did nothing for her all those years.
I have 8 brothers & sisters, 2 of which do little to nothing, to care for my father. We all chip in but this one sister done NOTHING to care for him.
It kills me to have to split his their inheritance (if there is anything left) with her but there is nothing I can do about.
Keep my mouth shut, I guess. :)
Heres my take on wills but then I have no children either. Why should children even inherit their parents money. We have left our estate to two different charities which we believe in. Originally I had it divided equally between my sisters, but then I asked myself "why?" I feel better it is going to something that is going to do some good rather than my siblings vacation or new couch or whatever. So this is an option rather than leave money to people whether they are children or relations.
My parents left their trust to be divided equally amongst their four children. If a child dies, that child's children get that portion. If there is no child (and one of my brothers is unmarried with no children), the other three children get his share. That is fair.
My MIL (still alive) has left her estate to be divided amongst her five children and her seven grandchildren). I don't know if the grandchildren get an equal amount to her children. I wish she'd done it the way my parents did it -- children only, but of course that's not my place to say.
Now this is the money part of MIL's estate. And no one knows how much this is. I suspect from what she told me one time that there are annuities to each grandchild woth $15,000. I don't know if her children get more.
Please don't get me started on the house that no one knows what is going to happen to it or the lakefront cottage that she has a life estate in, owned by the five siblings with right of survivorship (uggghhhh....that right-of-survivorship title is horrible!).
I want and need the money from my mother's trust -- while being divided four ways is not going to change anyone's life, I need that money.
If a person is truly spending a lot of money on caregiving, instead of using the parent's funds, then records should be kept and reimbursement made monthly.
An inheritance should be split equally among children. Some European countries have laws that insist on this equal split among children.
Only a parent with a mental disorder would but a child out of the will.
That is undue influence and it is a big no-no.
This is a different question from whether it is reasonable for a parent to divide his or her estate on whatever lines he or she sees fit. The person making or changing the will is entirely free to do so.
But for any beneficiary to "encourage" a parent to do this, even to the extent of giving an opinion, is wrong wrong wrong. Do not be tempted.
I shared my opinions about everything with my mother. And vice versa. I'm sure she knew how I felt about my do-nothing siblings getting an inheritance from her. I never encouraged my mother to change her will, but I did encourage her, at one point, to look into a reverse mortgage so that the bank would take her condo when she died, and I wouldn't have to share the proceeds with my do-nothing siblings.
That didn't actually happen. To move closer to my two older siblings, Mom and I bought a house together, with right of survivorship. I provided the down payment as her condo was still on the market at the time. That was the best outcome re the house, as I can sell it without sharing with anybody. The rest of it, as I said, is small potatoes.
He and his brother were in law practice together and his brother had very poor work habits as well as a terrible anger problem so my dad privately decided to go into practice on his own. My grandfather cut him out of the will to try to get him to stay with his brother, mostly because my uncle did not work hard enough to support himself. My dad refused to be manipulated in this way, which was a result of my uncle haranguing my aged grandad daily to take action against my dad.
Fast forward a few years and grandpa is now mad at my uncle, having reinstated dad in his will. He asks my dad to cut my uncle out of the will. My dad refuses. You don’t punish your kids that way.
You have an issue? Confront them or reward them when you are both alive. If you punish them or reward the, through your will, it only creates enmity among your children, and that is not a legacy you want to leave. You want your family to get along after you’re gone so don’t do anything to drive a wedge.
I have 3 brothers, once now deceased. All three live near my healthy 86–year-old mom. I live a day’s drive away. One brother is always there for her. When there is a problem he calls me. I talk to her daily and she visits us a couple months a year, and we her.
My husband is on disability and she helps us in many ways, using clothes for my teenager, medical bills, etc. But mostly, we just enjoy each other’s company immensely.
My my other two brothers are/were unhelpful but always judgmental in a negative way—anger rather than concerned. I just ignore it. I think it’s guilt. When my dad was bedridden with Parkinson’s dementia, and my mom faithfully cared for him at home, they hardly visited. They have to live with that.
The will is divided three ways (one brother deceased). Our needs are unequal but my mom helps me now and I don’t want any fighting when she’s gone. If she wants me to have something, she notes it or gives it to me now. And I’m not picky. I have the wedding rings and the stuff nobody else wants and that’s fine. My conscience is clear and I have the joy of her company and the great memories.
She goes through these moments where she hates him, but she NEEDS him, so I guess that's why she'll say "I'm cutting you out of my will". Who knows if that really happens--I kind of spoke in a knee jerk reaction way. She has a daughter but doesn't think girls can handle legal stuff.
And to the person who said my family is fractured over "the will"--well, yes, we're fractured but it's for reasons other than a will, of which none of us will receive enough to buy a used car. The brother who ripped off our parents started the "fracture" and the bad choice to move mother and dad in with YB was what caused the problems. BTW, all the sibs will be giving their share of mother's tiny estate to YB as he DID provide "free care" all these years. He doesn't know this.
Our will is written and we have no problem with changing it in time if we feel the kids do not need the money--or if one of us requires FT CG which could conceivably eat up everything. Luckily, our kids get along famously, and not one of them "needs" the money. We may, in 25 years, change it to divide among the g-kids for when they turn 21. Or 30. Or we may give it all away.
A will is NOT a gift. It's NOT a payment for services rendered. I've seen more anger and families fall apart over fairly small inheritances.
IF one of my kids has to step up in the CG dept., they will be compensated as an employee.
Our attorney gave us GREAT advice: "Do you want to leave tons of money behind for your kids or do you want to have a comfortable and secure future for YOU?" Put that way, well, no brainer. I want my kids to be my kids and my CG's to be my CG's, if I need them.
I assume you are asking because your siblings are not providing hands-on care to the extent that you are. That is their choice, as it is yours. You could inform your siblings that you will establish a care agreement that compensates you for your time from your parent's funds. They can then react to that as they choose: agree to the plan, negotiate terms, or pitch in equally to avoid any payment from your parent's funds.
There's nothing but ethics to stop you from trying to persuade your parents to change the terms of their will to give you a larger inheritance. But, however much you may be shouldering the burden of your parent's care, you are doing it willingly and, if you aren't you should address your issues now and either be compensated or get help. Stewing over it and plotting to get what's owed you once they're gone isn't a healthy situation for you, your parent, or your siblings.
Its all across the board, every one has siblings that don't kick in. Unfortunately it's a given seems like. Put your parents first and do as much as YOU can for them and don't worry about how much or little the siblings are doing or not doing in most cases.
If you want your kids to “change their ways” by shorting them, it will have the opposite effect, was his legal counsel. It will also cause strife in the family after you are gone. This was his counsel even before his own family strife.
He and my my mom had two kids who are not attentive but they are getting equal shares and I don’t begrudge them. If they got less, I’d have to deal with the fallout and my parents and I want family peace. They will have to live with the knowledge that they could have done more and didn’t and perhaps cojld’ve Modeled something better for their own kids.
Here is the way that this was handled by someone I know on the advice of her attorney: Her mother wanted to rewrite her will leaving everything to the daughter who was her care manager and cutting the estranged sibling out of the will. The daughter was not comfortable with changing the will, and didn't want to add to her taxable income or have a potential gift issue if Medicaid was needed later. Instead, a portion of the mother's assets (in this case about 20%) was set aside in a CD in the mother's name, titled POD to the caregiving daughter. The mother signed the CD so there could be no question that she agreed to the arrangement, rather than having the daughter sign as POA. The remaining 80% of the estate was to be split equally according to the will. POA takes precedence over a will. The estranged sibling effectively gave up 10% of the estate to the caregiving sibling. Since the CD became an inheritance rather than income, no income or employment taxes were due. Also, if mom had outlived her money, the CD could have been used for her care, which is what the daughter wanted. The additional advantage of this arrangement is that the amount of the CD can be changed at each maturity as the financial and caregiving situation changes without the need of changing a will.
Of course, we take care of our parents out of love, not greed. Of course we (or I) want our parents to spend their money on their own needs during their lifetimes, even if it means there won't be a penny left for anyone. Still, if there is money left when the parent dies, I feel the sacrifices of the caregiver should be rewarded before those who have the same blood relationship but couldn't be bothered to help the parent.
My 97 yr old mother recently moved into AL and she is more active now than in the past 4 years. She enjoys her independance. Cruises around the facility with her walker and even goes on the field trips on shopping sprees. I visit at least twice a week and we communicate daily by FaceTime on our iPhones. She's a new woman. I wish we would have made this decision years ago.
Yes, it's reasonable - - but hour parent would need to be mentally competent to be able to create another will - or even a first will. Does someone already having a power of attorney (maybe a durable one) make a difference? I wouldn't know about this.
If she is competent and able, and is happy to do so, then great...
But parents can have tremendously strong feelings of 'fairness' that can't be budged.
If you are a major caregiver or will become so in the future and it will have a significant financial impact on you, then this would be the best place to start, for it's better to start with issues like this first.
If you won't be endangering your own retirement funds and your parent has the funds to pay, perhaps, for a policy that covers all degrees of in-home care, then this would be best for her,even if her estate is heavily depleted.
My parents gave our farm to the sister they chose to live with my mother, my mom retaining a Life Estate meaning she owns the house as long as she lives, even able to rent it out should she needs it prefers to live elsewhere.
Another thing to consider is whether you are willing to have miserable contentious hateful relationships with all your family members after your parent is gone. People even fight over who gets the cast iron skillets & Dutch oven, the freezer, the family heirlooms, even inexpensive things with strong emotional connections...
And is it fair, money considerations aside, if some family lives too far away, has too many family commitments or cannot afford to contribute financially. A mother's love, sense of fairness or feelings that this child or that will need more financial help.
If you were to be the one to have to move in with her, it might not be unseemingly to ask if mama could settle a life estate regarding the home. Or to pay you for days you have to miss work for her appointments...
Lots of things to ponder here before you even open your mouth to your parent.
Maybe better to have an in-person or a video-conference call among the all of you to discuss your parent's needs, now and as time passes. Ask what, in time or funds (if they will be needed) or even "we'd love to have mama live with us"!
If it all pretty much lands in your lap, then can you point out the emotional burnout and financial impact on your quality of life to point out that you really really need commitments.
Mama could pass a month after signing a will that gave proportionate inheritance - and that would not be fair and would be challenged, possibly leaving all mama's money to the lawyers.
Lots to mull over. Same things a good lawyer would point out.
I've been in pickles, too.