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I would be the caregiver for nothing. But when another family member has asked the family member to put his name on all of the accounts and the FM who is a people-pleaser won't say no, (but has voiced intent for others to get some of what she leaves, if there is anything) then I resent the one who is subtley gaining access to whatever $$ there is but still expects us to do our part in caregiving.
I am a firm believer that if one member of the family goes far above and beyond what others in the family do, then give them more than the others. Let them bicker and scream - they do not deserve anything more. If there is some way for your mother to explain this before the end, then do so. If not, when the will is written up, have language to this effect included as to why it is so. It is only right and fair. And one more thing, I always believed that more should be given to one member if they are really struggling and the other have a great deal already. Be prepared for a fight but it morally right to help those in need more.
That's a perfectly fair point of view, and when you are making your own will you will be perfectly entitled to put it into operation.
But *this* question is about whether you should attempt to persuade somebody else to draw up their will in line with your point of view. It's a different issue.
The parent can set up a joint account with the primary caregiver, that avoids going through a will. But if you are trying to work through the money (I'm not talking millions, I'm talking a bit more then Medicaid allows) then NO ONE will get any money so the caregiver isn't getting more or less then the non-caregiver. One hopes the parent sees what is going on & understands that the caregiver's time is worth something and offers other ways to help. Gifting money annually might not be subjected to Medicaid look back. I spend just about all my non-working time doing for my Mother (bills, aides, insurance, shopping, cooking, explaining & re-explaining things, etc) and NO I don't do it for a possible inheritance, I do it out of love...but every once in a while it's nice that she pays for a meal or paid for the car I needed to take her to Doctor's, etc.
Financial planner can set up Irrevocable Trusts and that also doesn't go through the will. And if I get any grief from my brother, if my Mom predeceases me, that I can handle. I don't want him to withhold the 1x/few months he visits her.
A good parent will always treat all children equally.
In some countries parents are required to do this. There are also laws in some countries in which the parent still has a responsibility to treat an adult child fairly, even if they are not available for caregiving.
If one child volunteers to caregive rather than spending the money on a facility, that is their choice. Caregiving should be done out of love, not out of a desire to inherit everything.
Also, many caregivers take over and neglect to involve their siblings in decisions about whether or not to put the parent in a facility to ensure proper care. There are also numerous incidents among my clients in which the seemingly selfless caregiver has exerted undue influence over the parent.
Many times, the parent is not happy about this but feels helpless to change things or may no longer be mentally competent enough to know how to address the issue of undue influence.
Again, caregiving should be a choice made out of love, not greed.
Also, if a will or a bank account is change while a parent is ill, the other siblings have legal recourse to claim undue influence
Since the money belongs to the parents, it is theirs to do with as they wish. Some people talk about "their inheritance" as if it is something they are entitled to receive. Caregiving can involve a significant financial sacrifice. You may have to go to part time work or use all of your vacation time, or not get that promotion because you take too much time off etc. It would be nice if the person doing the work could be paid. That would be the ideal situation. It seems like most elderly persons do not agree to pay the caregiver if they are family. If there is a significant difference in the amount of caregiving the siblings do, then it seems reasonable to have that reflected in the will. It would be a good idea for the person making the will to put in writing why they decided what they did. For myself, if someone is there for me, I intend to express my appreciation for that in my will. It doesn't matter to me how they are related to me or what is expected. If you can't be bothered with me when I'm alive, why do you think you are entitled to my money when I am dead?
I think the suggestions to pay the caregiving child in a way that avoids the will altogether- ie. setting up a Payable on Death account, a caregiving contract or making the caregiver child beneficiary of an insurance policy or retirement account- sound like the best ideas. Don't change the will. Bypass it.
I am sure I will hear a lot of opinions to the contrary. I may be different because I have no living family now. Here is what I think. If you have "friends" or people who have always been there for you through thick and thin and your family has NOT been there, and if you have something you want to will - money or otherwise - I would and did always choose to give to those who were there for me all through whatever was happening and I was close to. Perhaps I might leave something to my family - depends on the relationship but not because they are "family". And I would always choose to give something to those who don't have much or are truly struggling to make ends meet. It seems obscene to me that some people only want to give to family members who are extremely well off and not in want rather than giving to people that are in need and who are very close. I feel inheritances are earned. They are not automatic. And, yes, it belongs to the person leaving the inheritance and they can choose to give it all or part to charities or to animal rescues. It is up to them entirely. In my case, it is going to my charities (but I have made provision for a couple of friends who are there for me and who are really struggling).
The will is not where this care agreement should be, it is a separate instrument and should be established now and communicated to anyone named in the will. Avoid future issues, because with the cost of care now there may not be much asset to distribute.
It's been interesting to ponder all the different opinions on this matter.
When beginning the caregiving journey, it could be a difficult subject to bring up compensation and inheritance. And most caregivers never realize in those early days just how bad the caregiving may eventually be.
Of course, a parent can do what they want with their money/estate. But so can the caregiver or potential caregiver child.
This wasn't clear -- too early, not enough coffee!
At the beginning of the caregiving journey, caregivers must bring up the compensation or inheritance issues. It gets harder and harder as time goes on.
A parent can do what they want with their money/estate. And a caregiver or potential caregiver child can do what THEY want with their life, and that may mean NOT being the caregiver for the parent if not compensated.
is it reasonable for a parent of their own free will to distribute according to his/her wishes ? Yes, and hopefully not with malice so that siblings don't squabble about it
No, it *doesn't* depend on the size of the estate. It doesn't matter whether the estate in question comprises vast tracts of land and listed companies, or a Cabbage Patch doll collection. The only thing that varies with the size of the estate is the willingness of lawyers and courts to get involved.
This is a question of how a person goes about drawing up or amending her will, and what those assisting her should contribute to her decision-making. Which is, as little as possible and ideally nothing at all. If it's really impossible for her to make her own mind up, in consultation with her disinterested lawyer if it is a sizeable estate, then she probably shouldn't be making changes anyway.
How do you determine how much care a sibling has provided? I live 2 hours from Mom. One brother lives 11 hours away and one is an hour away. My younger sister (who is a geriatric nurse) was designated DPOA and executor. She is 20 minutes from Mom. My youngest sister is 15 minutes from Mom. We all socialize with Mom, visiting her, phoning her, and including her in family events as we can. She has early Altz.
My DPOA sister does all of the day to day work BUT she doesn't delegate, she did not finalize the caregiver agreement I gave her and discussed with her, AND she seems to over protect Mom by restricting her activities far before I would. I really prefer that she be compensated as she is providing help, but Mom is stingy and won't pay anyone without a fight. Her concept of the cost of help as well as her memories are reverting to past years. Thus my sister may have not been able to get agreement with her for compensation. Still, she gave it away for free. Not working out the care agreement makes it difficult for this of us living far away to take time off and help. We need some compensation too, at least for travel. She didn't think she needed it so she didn't follow through. Now she complains.
I am helping, but differently than day to day responses. I am making her more comfortable with leaving her home, by sharing my efforts and adventures getting a senior apartment of my own. It is in a warm state and I love it 4 months of the year. She wants assurance that she has options. I want her to enjoy every remaining year. She also wants independence as long as possible.
I talk on the phone, visit, work on ancestry photos, and take her on short outings to the store, cemetery, senior apartments of interest. I don't make a big deal of it and I'm sure my efforts are not counted. I am just enjoying time with her. Does that mean I should be written out of the will? I would like to be referenced equally with my brothers and sisters. If compensation for caregiving will be done through the will, proper documentation should be provided or one or more of the Sibs may contest the will. Just my 2 cents.
First, for those who say inheritance is not a birthright...you are correct. But just barely by the last 70 years or so. It used to be the first born male child in almost every culture has his "birthright." That was to inherit all the father had and then it was up to the oldest male to decide who got what. Hence, the story of Jacob and Esau. These days it is up to the person leaving the estate how much to leave whom. Equal distribution is typically impractical and not logical for a myriad of reasons. Also, certain children create trouble, drama, and steal from their parents and the only way many parents can police them is to take them out of the Will. Also, if the parent wants to leave more money to one child who has given more time or for whatever reason, that IS UP TO THE PARENT. It is their money. They can do what they want with it, and should secure their own health first before anything.
Ideally, the elderly will use financial instruments such as an IRA, or life insurance which names beneficiaries and contigents and even per stirpes (a legal term if you do not know you probably should look up) to go around an estate and probate. At that point it is said and done anyhow. And with most instruments the gift can be disclaimed. But it is never always a good idea to go 50-50 unless you have limited assets that are easily divided. IMO. And watch if you are POA asking this question...it could be undue influence in certain instances.
While I have not read all the comments and I may be in the minority here I will go ahead and give what might be a minority opinion. Your parents worked their entire lives and saved money for "the future", for "a rainy day", when "there is something that we really need" and on and on..... Well NOW is the future...and baby it is pouring!....and if they NEED substantial care it is what they REALLY NEED...... My parents died when I was pretty young. (Mom died when I was 10 and my Dad died 4 years later) I did NOTHING to get the money that was left to me. I would have preferred for them to live to a ripe old age than to get money I did not earn. Inheritance is NOT a birthright. It is a bonus. If the money can be used NOW to make their lives better, to make them more comfortable then by all means spend it on them, for them. Would you rather them save and squirrel away their money just to pass some on or would you rather them have good care in a place (at home or a facility) where they can be safe and cared for. By safe I mean that might necessitate renovating a house to put in accessible bathrooms, ramps, turning a dining room into a bedroom so they do not have to go upstairs. (and yes this might mean having to put in another full bathroom) With renovations you might spend over $100,000 knowing you will never recoup that money when the house goes on the market. It is their money let them do with it what they want. When you have to do your Will you can dispense your money the way you want. Don't get me started on people that want to "hide" money so a parent will qualify for Medicaid...I would rather pay for more quality care than hide money so I can be next in line for a medicaid bed at some facility Stepping down off my soap box now...
A fair option might be to pay siblings for the care they provide out of the parents account. To make it fair the same hourly rate could be applied to each. If there are 3 siblings one provides no care, one child provides 8 hours of care every Monday and someone else provides care the rest of the time at 168 hours per week one person would get paid for 8 hours another for 160 hours. A contract would be drawn up and an hourly rate established. This would probably be the most fair way to "pay or compensate" the siblings that provide care. If one that provides no direct care does paperwork, paying bills, organizing other aspects then that person should get compensated the same way as the others doing direct care.
Grandma wrote: [ If the money can be used NOW to make their lives better, to make them more comfortable then by all means spend it on them, for ]them.
I agree, unfortunately, I have had many clients in which the thief is the one hiding behind the caregiver role.
They wear their role like a halo, while they isolate the parent so that they can make all the decisions.
Often the parent has partial dementia and they believe all the controlling child tells them while they are isolated.
I had one client whose daughter failed to apprise the siblings of the mother's failing health. She even told the very ill mother that she had contacted the siblings but that they refused to visit. It was a lie.
She then encouraged her to change the will, according to the ill person, who apparrently was not so lost in dementia that she did not figure out what was going on.
If your mom has a substantial estate, you should hire caregivers so you are not giving up your life for an inheritance.
24/7/365 caregiving is to much for one person. Children are not obligated to be that care. You are only obligated to use moms money to make sure she is well cared for, if that means there is no money left for you or siblings at her death, then at least you know you did right by your mom and she got the best care possible.
I’m a bit surprised that so many people think an equal division is best, because it isn’t necessarily ‘normal’ - as soon as the estate involves a business-size asset, for example. Here are some options to consider, besides the carer agreement. The first is for your mother’s will to leave you a specific $ bequest ‘in recognition of the care you have provided’, and then to divide the remainder equally. The second option is for the other beneficiaries to make a division by agreement that is different from the equal shares in the will, when the time comes. For example, my older sister and I agreed not to deduct the formal loans to our younger sister from her share. That would allow your mother to ‘lend’ you money now, instead of making a formal carer agreement. The third option is for your mother to make gifts now and in the future, in proportions she chooses, and then make the will in equal shares. For example, my MIL did just that with 3 of her 4 children, leaving her with a much smaller estate, and then the will was equal shares for what was left. None of these options are likely to be challenged (that was the reason for option 3, on her independent legal advice). However option 2 needs agreement from the beneficiaries (OK with sister, but what about the other siblings?), options 2 and 3 involve Medicaid issues, options 1 and 2 assume that no new will is going to be made in future, and all the options assume that your mother is still legally competent to make her will. Best wishes, Margaret.
Seems a caregiver agreement would be reasonable. Telling someone they will be compensated in a will? What if there is no money left? I like "pay as you go" whenever possible. Also, how about getting in your quarters so that you have social security? How would an unpaid caregiver do that, unless they were able to hold down an outside job as well?
Hi, Grace.. Yes, it's reasonable - - but hour parent would need to be mentally competent to be able to create another will - or even a first will. Does someone already having a power of attorney (maybe a durable one) make a difference? I wouldn't know about this.
If she is competent and able, and is happy to do so, then great...
But parents can have tremendously strong feelings of 'fairness' that can't be budged.
If you are a major caregiver or will become so in the future and it will have a significant financial impact on you, then this would be the best place to start, for it's better to start with issues like this first.
If you won't be endangering your own retirement funds and your parent has the funds to pay, perhaps, for a policy that covers all degrees of in-home care, then this would be best for her,even if her estate is heavily depleted.
My parents gave our farm to the sister they chose to live with my mother, my mom retaining a Life Estate meaning she owns the house as long as she lives, even able to rent it out should she needs it prefers to live elsewhere.
Another thing to consider is whether you are willing to have miserable contentious hateful relationships with all your family members after your parent is gone. People even fight over who gets the cast iron skillets & Dutch oven, the freezer, the family heirlooms, even inexpensive things with strong emotional connections...
And is it fair, money considerations aside, if some family lives too far away, has too many family commitments or cannot afford to contribute financially. A mother's love, sense of fairness or feelings that this child or that will need more financial help.
If you were to be the one to have to move in with her, it might not be unseemingly to ask if mama could settle a life estate regarding the home. Or to pay you for days you have to miss work for her appointments...
Lots of things to ponder here before you even open your mouth to your parent.
Maybe better to have an in-person or a video-conference call among the all of you to discuss your parent's needs, now and as time passes. Ask what, in time or funds (if they will be needed) or even "we'd love to have mama live with us"!
If it all pretty much lands in your lap, then can you point out the emotional burnout and financial impact on your quality of life to point out that you really really need commitments.
Mama could pass a month after signing a will that gave proportionate inheritance - and that would not be fair and would be challenged, possibly leaving all mama's money to the lawyers.
Lots to mull over. Same things a good lawyer would point out.
gracealways, do you have POA for her estate? One thing that no one has mentioned on this forum is your obvious burned out state of mind. To me, that seems to be a major factor. No amount of money will benifit you if your health is shot, if you're unable to function as a caregiver, or you die before your mother dies. Have you considered placing her in a senior facility? You're her daughter, but there is no written law that says you are responsible for her day to day care, especially at the risk of your own well being. If that's not an option, by all means, take compensation for what you do. If you can no longer handle the situation, look into a good senior facility, or in-home help and/or respite.
My 97 yr old mother recently moved into AL and she is more active now than in the past 4 years. She enjoys her independance. Cruises around the facility with her walker and even goes on the field trips on shopping sprees. I visit at least twice a week and we communicate daily by FaceTime on our iPhones. She's a new woman. I wish we would have made this decision years ago.
I have to disagree with those who claim that an inheritance should not be compensation. There was an New York Times article dated January 14, 2012 entitled "Bargaining for a Child's Love" that detailed the common practices of caring for elders in the days before Social Security took effect. According to the author's research, it was very much a common practice for one relative to take on the caregiving role in exchange for the promise of the house, land, business, bank accounts, etc. Even when there was no alternative to being cared for by family, the one who stepped up commonly had the promise of an inheritance to compensate them. The idea that all children should share equally was not the governing mentality, at least not then.
Of course, we take care of our parents out of love, not greed. Of course we (or I) want our parents to spend their money on their own needs during their lifetimes, even if it means there won't be a penny left for anyone. Still, if there is money left when the parent dies, I feel the sacrifices of the caregiver should be rewarded before those who have the same blood relationship but couldn't be bothered to help the parent.
But if you wait to compensate the caregiver until the caree dies, then what happens if there is no money left? Paying as you go seems fairer to me. Also, where is the guarantee that the will will not be secretly changed? Promises broken. Guess you are a much nicer person than me. Or much less suspicious. But keep in mind that in the old days, there was no Medicaid and its rules, people generally did not linger on and on with severe medical problems. Whole different world.
There is another issue to consider in this discussion. If the care-giving child is compensated through a care-giver agreement as suggested by Jeannegibbs and others, then the payments must be reported on the recipient's tax return as taxable income. Federal and state income tax as well as SS and Medicare tax must be paid. This could amount to more than 30% of the amount paid. If it is not reported, it will be treated as a gift. Of course, a gift could become a problem if Medicaid is needed in the future.
Here is the way that this was handled by someone I know on the advice of her attorney: Her mother wanted to rewrite her will leaving everything to the daughter who was her care manager and cutting the estranged sibling out of the will. The daughter was not comfortable with changing the will, and didn't want to add to her taxable income or have a potential gift issue if Medicaid was needed later. Instead, a portion of the mother's assets (in this case about 20%) was set aside in a CD in the mother's name, titled POD to the caregiving daughter. The mother signed the CD so there could be no question that she agreed to the arrangement, rather than having the daughter sign as POA. The remaining 80% of the estate was to be split equally according to the will. POA takes precedence over a will. The estranged sibling effectively gave up 10% of the estate to the caregiving sibling. Since the CD became an inheritance rather than income, no income or employment taxes were due. Also, if mom had outlived her money, the CD could have been used for her care, which is what the daughter wanted. The additional advantage of this arrangement is that the amount of the CD can be changed at each maturity as the financial and caregiving situation changes without the need of changing a will.
Was the daughter OK for her Social Security quarters? Don't ignore that - we got through the last recession because of Social Security holding firm. No one should be expected to care for a parent and then end up in poverty because they could not work toward their own retirement.
My point is that my dad, as an estate lawyer, always advised parents to leave equal amounts and help kids while alive. It was and still is sound legal counsel.
If you want your kids to “change their ways” by shorting them, it will have the opposite effect, was his legal counsel. It will also cause strife in the family after you are gone. This was his counsel even before his own family strife.
He and my my mom had two kids who are not attentive but they are getting equal shares and I don’t begrudge them. If they got less, I’d have to deal with the fallout and my parents and I want family peace. They will have to live with the knowledge that they could have done more and didn’t and perhaps cojld’ve Modeled something better for their own kids.
This is good advice, BUT how about Medicaid and gifting? The issue of trying to control your kids through money is an excellent point to consider, but not quite the same as reasonable compensation for goods and services.
No. Inheritance isn't compensation. Where does that kind of thinking stop? Who was the easier teenager to raise? Who was potty-trained first? Which child cut the grass most often or helped with laundry?
I assume you are asking because your siblings are not providing hands-on care to the extent that you are. That is their choice, as it is yours. You could inform your siblings that you will establish a care agreement that compensates you for your time from your parent's funds. They can then react to that as they choose: agree to the plan, negotiate terms, or pitch in equally to avoid any payment from your parent's funds.
There's nothing but ethics to stop you from trying to persuade your parents to change the terms of their will to give you a larger inheritance. But, however much you may be shouldering the burden of your parent's care, you are doing it willingly and, if you aren't you should address your issues now and either be compensated or get help. Stewing over it and plotting to get what's owed you once they're gone isn't a healthy situation for you, your parent, or your siblings.
Very well said. I mean, think about how your parents would feel if you ask them such a question!
Its all across the board, every one has siblings that don't kick in. Unfortunately it's a given seems like. Put your parents first and do as much as YOU can for them and don't worry about how much or little the siblings are doing or not doing in most cases.
Someone asked WHY my DH was still the executor of his mother's estate since she has "disowned him" and that actually made me laugh.
She goes through these moments where she hates him, but she NEEDS him, so I guess that's why she'll say "I'm cutting you out of my will". Who knows if that really happens--I kind of spoke in a knee jerk reaction way. She has a daughter but doesn't think girls can handle legal stuff.
And to the person who said my family is fractured over "the will"--well, yes, we're fractured but it's for reasons other than a will, of which none of us will receive enough to buy a used car. The brother who ripped off our parents started the "fracture" and the bad choice to move mother and dad in with YB was what caused the problems. BTW, all the sibs will be giving their share of mother's tiny estate to YB as he DID provide "free care" all these years. He doesn't know this.
Our will is written and we have no problem with changing it in time if we feel the kids do not need the money--or if one of us requires FT CG which could conceivably eat up everything. Luckily, our kids get along famously, and not one of them "needs" the money. We may, in 25 years, change it to divide among the g-kids for when they turn 21. Or 30. Or we may give it all away.
A will is NOT a gift. It's NOT a payment for services rendered. I've seen more anger and families fall apart over fairly small inheritances.
IF one of my kids has to step up in the CG dept., they will be compensated as an employee.
Our attorney gave us GREAT advice: "Do you want to leave tons of money behind for your kids or do you want to have a comfortable and secure future for YOU?" Put that way, well, no brainer. I want my kids to be my kids and my CG's to be my CG's, if I need them.
Good luck with that...my father's mother gave everything to her "other son" who did absolutely diddly squat for her while my father slaved away and took her every place and took care of her..what did he get..nothing.
My dad was an attorney who did a lot of estates and wrote a lot of wills during his career. His advice would also be apportion the estate equally. If you want to help your kids, do it while you’re alive. “Give whole younlove so you know where it goes.”
He and his brother were in law practice together and his brother had very poor work habits as well as a terrible anger problem so my dad privately decided to go into practice on his own. My grandfather cut him out of the will to try to get him to stay with his brother, mostly because my uncle did not work hard enough to support himself. My dad refused to be manipulated in this way, which was a result of my uncle haranguing my aged grandad daily to take action against my dad.
Fast forward a few years and grandpa is now mad at my uncle, having reinstated dad in his will. He asks my dad to cut my uncle out of the will. My dad refuses. You don’t punish your kids that way.
You have an issue? Confront them or reward them when you are both alive. If you punish them or reward the, through your will, it only creates enmity among your children, and that is not a legacy you want to leave. You want your family to get along after you’re gone so don’t do anything to drive a wedge.
I have 3 brothers, once now deceased. All three live near my healthy 86–year-old mom. I live a day’s drive away. One brother is always there for her. When there is a problem he calls me. I talk to her daily and she visits us a couple months a year, and we her.
My husband is on disability and she helps us in many ways, using clothes for my teenager, medical bills, etc. But mostly, we just enjoy each other’s company immensely.
My my other two brothers are/were unhelpful but always judgmental in a negative way—anger rather than concerned. I just ignore it. I think it’s guilt. When my dad was bedridden with Parkinson’s dementia, and my mom faithfully cared for him at home, they hardly visited. They have to live with that.
The will is divided three ways (one brother deceased). Our needs are unequal but my mom helps me now and I don’t want any fighting when she’s gone. If she wants me to have something, she notes it or gives it to me now. And I’m not picky. I have the wedding rings and the stuff nobody else wants and that’s fine. My conscience is clear and I have the joy of her company and the great memories.
It should always be split equally. And I agree, especially if you have a large estate, help your kids and other people while they are alive. My grandmother and her brother were given their trusts at 30 years of age. It allowed them a life they would never have had otherwise. My sister's in-laws gifted both their sons a chunk of their inheritance at 40. Due to this they have been able to build successful businesses and 2nd homes, travel and enjoy it with their parents and grandchildren while everyone is fairly young. If you have more than enough for good care, then what is the point of making your children wait. I saw Judge Judy (who obviously has done well) talk about the joy of giving to her children and grandchildren while she and her husband are still alive. And her comment was that she did not want her children waiting for her to die to get their inheritance. If people think this is wrong or callous they are not being honest. This happens all of the time. Especially if someone really needs the money now-and- there is a large estate with funds just sitting there. My observation is that people who have come from money and had wealth help their children early on as they see it as a way to expand the wealth and keep it going, and people who are the first generation to have any money are too afraid to spend or give until they die.
This is a different question from whether it is reasonable for a parent to divide his or her estate on whatever lines he or she sees fit. The person making or changing the will is entirely free to do so.
But for any beneficiary to "encourage" a parent to do this, even to the extent of giving an opinion, is wrong wrong wrong. Do not be tempted.
I would not agree that giving one's opinion is undue influence, or is a no-no. Undue influence would be if you threatened to stop caregiving unless the will was changed in your favor. Stating your feelings or opinion about if falls far short of that.
I shared my opinions about everything with my mother. And vice versa. I'm sure she knew how I felt about my do-nothing siblings getting an inheritance from her. I never encouraged my mother to change her will, but I did encourage her, at one point, to look into a reverse mortgage so that the bank would take her condo when she died, and I wouldn't have to share the proceeds with my do-nothing siblings.
That didn't actually happen. To move closer to my two older siblings, Mom and I bought a house together, with right of survivorship. I provided the down payment as her condo was still on the market at the time. That was the best outcome re the house, as I can sell it without sharing with anybody. The rest of it, as I said, is small potatoes.
And some people do just that, Harpcat -- leave all their money to charity. I suspect you might feel differently if you had children, particularly if there were normal relationships with those children.
My parents left their trust to be divided equally amongst their four children. If a child dies, that child's children get that portion. If there is no child (and one of my brothers is unmarried with no children), the other three children get his share. That is fair.
My MIL (still alive) has left her estate to be divided amongst her five children and her seven grandchildren). I don't know if the grandchildren get an equal amount to her children. I wish she'd done it the way my parents did it -- children only, but of course that's not my place to say.
Now this is the money part of MIL's estate. And no one knows how much this is. I suspect from what she told me one time that there are annuities to each grandchild woth $15,000. I don't know if her children get more.
Please don't get me started on the house that no one knows what is going to happen to it or the lakefront cottage that she has a life estate in, owned by the five siblings with right of survivorship (uggghhhh....that right-of-survivorship title is horrible!).
I want and need the money from my mother's trust -- while being divided four ways is not going to change anyone's life, I need that money.
Yes. Caregiving is a choice. If a person chooses to quit their job to take care of a parent. ....then that is their choice. It should be done out of love, not greed.
If a person is truly spending a lot of money on caregiving, instead of using the parent's funds, then records should be kept and reimbursement made monthly.
An inheritance should be split equally among children. Some European countries have laws that insist on this equal split among children.
Only a parent with a mental disorder would but a child out of the will.
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But *this* question is about whether you should attempt to persuade somebody else to draw up their will in line with your point of view. It's a different issue.
Financial planner can set up Irrevocable Trusts and that also doesn't go through the will. And if I get any grief from my brother, if my Mom predeceases me, that I can handle. I don't want him to withhold the 1x/few months he visits her.
A good parent will always treat all children equally.
In some countries parents are required to do this. There are also laws in some countries in which the parent still has a responsibility to treat an adult child fairly, even if they are not available for caregiving.
If one child volunteers to caregive rather than spending the money on a facility, that is their choice. Caregiving should be done out of love, not out of a desire to inherit everything.
Also, many caregivers take over and neglect to involve their siblings in decisions about whether or not to put the parent in a facility to ensure proper care. There are also numerous incidents among my clients in which the seemingly selfless caregiver has exerted undue influence over the parent.
Many times, the parent is not happy about this but feels helpless to change things or may no longer be mentally competent enough to know how to address the issue of undue influence.
Again, caregiving should be a choice made out of love, not greed.
Also, if a will or a bank account is change while a parent is ill, the other siblings have legal recourse to claim undue influence
Did you only have children so that they could be your caregivers as you age?
How selfish.
Why not plan for your own caregiving, as I have done.
All my children will be treated equally, even those that live and work far away or in another country and can not visit often.
When beginning the caregiving journey, it could be a difficult subject to bring up compensation and inheritance. And most caregivers never realize in those early days just how bad the caregiving may eventually be.
Of course, a parent can do what they want with their money/estate. But so can the caregiver or potential caregiver child.
At the beginning of the caregiving journey, caregivers must bring up the compensation or inheritance issues. It gets harder and harder as time goes on.
A parent can do what they want with their money/estate. And a caregiver or potential caregiver child can do what THEY want with their life, and that may mean NOT being the caregiver for the parent if not compensated.
is it reasonable for a parent of their own free will to distribute according to his/her wishes ? Yes, and hopefully not with malice so that siblings don't squabble about it
This is a question of how a person goes about drawing up or amending her will, and what those assisting her should contribute to her decision-making. Which is, as little as possible and ideally nothing at all. If it's really impossible for her to make her own mind up, in consultation with her disinterested lawyer if it is a sizeable estate, then she probably shouldn't be making changes anyway.
My DPOA sister does all of the day to day work BUT she doesn't delegate, she did not finalize the caregiver agreement I gave her and discussed with her, AND she seems to over protect Mom by restricting her activities far before I would. I really prefer that she be compensated as she is providing help, but Mom is stingy and won't pay anyone without a fight. Her concept of the cost of help as well as her memories are reverting to past years. Thus my sister may have not been able to get agreement with her for compensation. Still, she gave it away for free. Not working out the care agreement makes it difficult for this of us living far away to take time off and help. We need some compensation too, at least for travel. She didn't think she needed it so she didn't follow through. Now she complains.
I am helping, but differently than day to day responses. I am making her more comfortable with leaving her home, by sharing my efforts and adventures getting a senior apartment of my own. It is in a warm state and I love it 4 months of the year. She wants assurance that she has options. I want her to enjoy every remaining year. She also wants independence as long as possible.
I talk on the phone, visit, work on ancestry photos, and take her on short outings to the store, cemetery, senior apartments of interest. I don't make a big deal of it and I'm sure my efforts are not counted. I am just enjoying time with her. Does that mean I should be written out of the will? I would like to be referenced equally with my brothers and sisters. If compensation for caregiving will be done through the will, proper documentation should be provided or one or more of the Sibs may contest the will. Just my 2 cents.
Many so called, self-proclaimed, selfless caregivers have isolated the parent and are very controlling
Many refuse to keep the siblings informed and then complain when they do not visit.
Many refuse to work out a care agreement because they want to be in control, but then they still want the right to complain.
It's basically rooted in greed, not caring. They do, however, hide behind the caregiver role.
Many of my clients would prefer to use the parents money for a good facility, but the controlling caregiver sibling refuses out of greed not love.
Ideally, the elderly will use financial instruments such as an IRA, or life insurance which names beneficiaries and contigents and even per stirpes (a legal term if you do not know you probably should look up) to go around an estate and probate. At that point it is said and done anyhow. And with most instruments the gift can be disclaimed. But it is never always a good idea to go 50-50 unless you have limited assets that are easily divided. IMO. And watch if you are POA asking this question...it could be undue influence in certain instances.
Your parents worked their entire lives and saved money for "the future", for "a rainy day", when "there is something that we really need" and on and on.....
Well NOW is the future...and baby it is pouring!....and if they NEED substantial care it is what they REALLY NEED......
My parents died when I was pretty young. (Mom died when I was 10 and my Dad died 4 years later) I did NOTHING to get the money that was left to me. I would have preferred for them to live to a ripe old age than to get money I did not earn.
Inheritance is NOT a birthright. It is a bonus. If the money can be used NOW to make their lives better, to make them more comfortable then by all means spend it on them, for them. Would you rather them save and squirrel away their money just to pass some on or would you rather them have good care in a place (at home or a facility) where they can be safe and cared for. By safe I mean that might necessitate renovating a house to put in accessible bathrooms, ramps, turning a dining room into a bedroom so they do not have to go upstairs. (and yes this might mean having to put in another full bathroom) With renovations you might spend over $100,000 knowing you will never recoup that money when the house goes on the market.
It is their money let them do with it what they want. When you have to do your Will you can dispense your money the way you want.
Don't get me started on people that want to "hide" money so a parent will qualify for Medicaid...I would rather pay for more quality care than hide money so I can be next in line for a medicaid bed at some facility
Stepping down off my soap box now...
A fair option might be to pay siblings for the care they provide out of the parents account. To make it fair the same hourly rate could be applied to each. If there are 3 siblings one provides no care, one child provides 8 hours of care every Monday and someone else provides care the rest of the time at 168 hours per week one person would get paid for 8 hours another for 160 hours. A contract would be drawn up and an hourly rate established. This would probably be the most fair way to "pay or compensate" the siblings that provide care. If one that provides no direct care does paperwork, paying bills, organizing other aspects then that person should get compensated the same way as the others doing direct care.
I agree, unfortunately, I have had many clients in which the thief is the one hiding behind the caregiver role.
They wear their role like a halo, while they isolate the parent so that they can make all the decisions.
Often the parent has partial dementia and they believe all the controlling child tells them while they are isolated.
I had one client whose daughter failed to apprise the siblings of the mother's failing health. She even told the very ill mother that she had contacted the siblings but that they refused to visit. It was a lie.
She then encouraged her to change the will, according to the ill person, who apparrently was not so lost in dementia that she did not figure out what was going on.
24/7/365 caregiving is to much for one person. Children are not obligated to be that care. You are only obligated to use moms money to make sure she is well cared for, if that means there is no money left for you or siblings at her death, then at least you know you did right by your mom and she got the best care possible.
Yes, it's reasonable - - but hour parent would need to be mentally competent to be able to create another will - or even a first will. Does someone already having a power of attorney (maybe a durable one) make a difference? I wouldn't know about this.
If she is competent and able, and is happy to do so, then great...
But parents can have tremendously strong feelings of 'fairness' that can't be budged.
If you are a major caregiver or will become so in the future and it will have a significant financial impact on you, then this would be the best place to start, for it's better to start with issues like this first.
If you won't be endangering your own retirement funds and your parent has the funds to pay, perhaps, for a policy that covers all degrees of in-home care, then this would be best for her,even if her estate is heavily depleted.
My parents gave our farm to the sister they chose to live with my mother, my mom retaining a Life Estate meaning she owns the house as long as she lives, even able to rent it out should she needs it prefers to live elsewhere.
Another thing to consider is whether you are willing to have miserable contentious hateful relationships with all your family members after your parent is gone. People even fight over who gets the cast iron skillets & Dutch oven, the freezer, the family heirlooms, even inexpensive things with strong emotional connections...
And is it fair, money considerations aside, if some family lives too far away, has too many family commitments or cannot afford to contribute financially. A mother's love, sense of fairness or feelings that this child or that will need more financial help.
If you were to be the one to have to move in with her, it might not be unseemingly to ask if mama could settle a life estate regarding the home. Or to pay you for days you have to miss work for her appointments...
Lots of things to ponder here before you even open your mouth to your parent.
Maybe better to have an in-person or a video-conference call among the all of you to discuss your parent's needs, now and as time passes. Ask what, in time or funds (if they will be needed) or even "we'd love to have mama live with us"!
If it all pretty much lands in your lap, then can you point out the emotional burnout and financial impact on your quality of life to point out that you really really need commitments.
Mama could pass a month after signing a will that gave proportionate inheritance - and that would not be fair and would be challenged, possibly leaving all mama's money to the lawyers.
Lots to mull over. Same things a good lawyer would point out.
I've been in pickles, too.
My 97 yr old mother recently moved into AL and she is more active now than in the past 4 years. She enjoys her independance. Cruises around the facility with her walker and even goes on the field trips on shopping sprees. I visit at least twice a week and we communicate daily by FaceTime on our iPhones. She's a new woman. I wish we would have made this decision years ago.
Of course, we take care of our parents out of love, not greed. Of course we (or I) want our parents to spend their money on their own needs during their lifetimes, even if it means there won't be a penny left for anyone. Still, if there is money left when the parent dies, I feel the sacrifices of the caregiver should be rewarded before those who have the same blood relationship but couldn't be bothered to help the parent.
Here is the way that this was handled by someone I know on the advice of her attorney: Her mother wanted to rewrite her will leaving everything to the daughter who was her care manager and cutting the estranged sibling out of the will. The daughter was not comfortable with changing the will, and didn't want to add to her taxable income or have a potential gift issue if Medicaid was needed later. Instead, a portion of the mother's assets (in this case about 20%) was set aside in a CD in the mother's name, titled POD to the caregiving daughter. The mother signed the CD so there could be no question that she agreed to the arrangement, rather than having the daughter sign as POA. The remaining 80% of the estate was to be split equally according to the will. POA takes precedence over a will. The estranged sibling effectively gave up 10% of the estate to the caregiving sibling. Since the CD became an inheritance rather than income, no income or employment taxes were due. Also, if mom had outlived her money, the CD could have been used for her care, which is what the daughter wanted. The additional advantage of this arrangement is that the amount of the CD can be changed at each maturity as the financial and caregiving situation changes without the need of changing a will.
If you want your kids to “change their ways” by shorting them, it will have the opposite effect, was his legal counsel. It will also cause strife in the family after you are gone. This was his counsel even before his own family strife.
He and my my mom had two kids who are not attentive but they are getting equal shares and I don’t begrudge them. If they got less, I’d have to deal with the fallout and my parents and I want family peace. They will have to live with the knowledge that they could have done more and didn’t and perhaps cojld’ve Modeled something better for their own kids.
I assume you are asking because your siblings are not providing hands-on care to the extent that you are. That is their choice, as it is yours. You could inform your siblings that you will establish a care agreement that compensates you for your time from your parent's funds. They can then react to that as they choose: agree to the plan, negotiate terms, or pitch in equally to avoid any payment from your parent's funds.
There's nothing but ethics to stop you from trying to persuade your parents to change the terms of their will to give you a larger inheritance. But, however much you may be shouldering the burden of your parent's care, you are doing it willingly and, if you aren't you should address your issues now and either be compensated or get help. Stewing over it and plotting to get what's owed you once they're gone isn't a healthy situation for you, your parent, or your siblings.
Its all across the board, every one has siblings that don't kick in. Unfortunately it's a given seems like. Put your parents first and do as much as YOU can for them and don't worry about how much or little the siblings are doing or not doing in most cases.
She goes through these moments where she hates him, but she NEEDS him, so I guess that's why she'll say "I'm cutting you out of my will". Who knows if that really happens--I kind of spoke in a knee jerk reaction way. She has a daughter but doesn't think girls can handle legal stuff.
And to the person who said my family is fractured over "the will"--well, yes, we're fractured but it's for reasons other than a will, of which none of us will receive enough to buy a used car. The brother who ripped off our parents started the "fracture" and the bad choice to move mother and dad in with YB was what caused the problems. BTW, all the sibs will be giving their share of mother's tiny estate to YB as he DID provide "free care" all these years. He doesn't know this.
Our will is written and we have no problem with changing it in time if we feel the kids do not need the money--or if one of us requires FT CG which could conceivably eat up everything. Luckily, our kids get along famously, and not one of them "needs" the money. We may, in 25 years, change it to divide among the g-kids for when they turn 21. Or 30. Or we may give it all away.
A will is NOT a gift. It's NOT a payment for services rendered. I've seen more anger and families fall apart over fairly small inheritances.
IF one of my kids has to step up in the CG dept., they will be compensated as an employee.
Our attorney gave us GREAT advice: "Do you want to leave tons of money behind for your kids or do you want to have a comfortable and secure future for YOU?" Put that way, well, no brainer. I want my kids to be my kids and my CG's to be my CG's, if I need them.
He and his brother were in law practice together and his brother had very poor work habits as well as a terrible anger problem so my dad privately decided to go into practice on his own. My grandfather cut him out of the will to try to get him to stay with his brother, mostly because my uncle did not work hard enough to support himself. My dad refused to be manipulated in this way, which was a result of my uncle haranguing my aged grandad daily to take action against my dad.
Fast forward a few years and grandpa is now mad at my uncle, having reinstated dad in his will. He asks my dad to cut my uncle out of the will. My dad refuses. You don’t punish your kids that way.
You have an issue? Confront them or reward them when you are both alive. If you punish them or reward the, through your will, it only creates enmity among your children, and that is not a legacy you want to leave. You want your family to get along after you’re gone so don’t do anything to drive a wedge.
I have 3 brothers, once now deceased. All three live near my healthy 86–year-old mom. I live a day’s drive away. One brother is always there for her. When there is a problem he calls me. I talk to her daily and she visits us a couple months a year, and we her.
My husband is on disability and she helps us in many ways, using clothes for my teenager, medical bills, etc. But mostly, we just enjoy each other’s company immensely.
My my other two brothers are/were unhelpful but always judgmental in a negative way—anger rather than concerned. I just ignore it. I think it’s guilt. When my dad was bedridden with Parkinson’s dementia, and my mom faithfully cared for him at home, they hardly visited. They have to live with that.
The will is divided three ways (one brother deceased). Our needs are unequal but my mom helps me now and I don’t want any fighting when she’s gone. If she wants me to have something, she notes it or gives it to me now. And I’m not picky. I have the wedding rings and the stuff nobody else wants and that’s fine. My conscience is clear and I have the joy of her company and the great memories.
That is undue influence and it is a big no-no.
This is a different question from whether it is reasonable for a parent to divide his or her estate on whatever lines he or she sees fit. The person making or changing the will is entirely free to do so.
But for any beneficiary to "encourage" a parent to do this, even to the extent of giving an opinion, is wrong wrong wrong. Do not be tempted.
I shared my opinions about everything with my mother. And vice versa. I'm sure she knew how I felt about my do-nothing siblings getting an inheritance from her. I never encouraged my mother to change her will, but I did encourage her, at one point, to look into a reverse mortgage so that the bank would take her condo when she died, and I wouldn't have to share the proceeds with my do-nothing siblings.
That didn't actually happen. To move closer to my two older siblings, Mom and I bought a house together, with right of survivorship. I provided the down payment as her condo was still on the market at the time. That was the best outcome re the house, as I can sell it without sharing with anybody. The rest of it, as I said, is small potatoes.
My parents left their trust to be divided equally amongst their four children. If a child dies, that child's children get that portion. If there is no child (and one of my brothers is unmarried with no children), the other three children get his share. That is fair.
My MIL (still alive) has left her estate to be divided amongst her five children and her seven grandchildren). I don't know if the grandchildren get an equal amount to her children. I wish she'd done it the way my parents did it -- children only, but of course that's not my place to say.
Now this is the money part of MIL's estate. And no one knows how much this is. I suspect from what she told me one time that there are annuities to each grandchild woth $15,000. I don't know if her children get more.
Please don't get me started on the house that no one knows what is going to happen to it or the lakefront cottage that she has a life estate in, owned by the five siblings with right of survivorship (uggghhhh....that right-of-survivorship title is horrible!).
I want and need the money from my mother's trust -- while being divided four ways is not going to change anyone's life, I need that money.
If a person is truly spending a lot of money on caregiving, instead of using the parent's funds, then records should be kept and reimbursement made monthly.
An inheritance should be split equally among children. Some European countries have laws that insist on this equal split among children.
Only a parent with a mental disorder would but a child out of the will.